CR-Par

[D-S]

It might feel weird to begin with, because change often does that to a person.

However, it appears your Blue Course is significantly easier than your White Course, given you get 5 shots less. If your mind had not been "corrupted" by what has been before, and instead you were coming with a complete fresh mind to golf, it would probably make a lot of sense that you get quite a few more shots on the white course.

I think everyone is aware of the comparative difficulty of their various tee sets (if nothing else from the digfferent score differentials on their WHS record) which didn't necessarily mean our minds were 'corrupted', the difference will be seeing this actually reflected in ones CH.

 

[D-S]

HI 4.3

Currently White 5, Yellow 5, Red 5

From April White 6, Yellow 4, Red 3.

Par drops by two shots off the reds. Two par-5s become par-4s of 439 and 446 yards. Not reachable in two for the majority of chaps, but were/are reachable in 3 from whites/yellows.

I think most chaps will understand going up a shot off whites and down a shot of yellows. Par 70 from both.
But it is the scoring of 36 points off reds that will flummox many. Two holes become a shot harder, yet the handicap has come down 2 shots. (4 shots harder?)
Trying to persuade them that at 48 yards shorter per hole on average than the whites, the red course is 4 and a half shots easier - will be a task.

Shame, because some were coming round to the perception that all courses were same difficulty/easiness, because CR and SR made it so. It still is, of course, but that might be what they become unsure of due to the change in handicaps that they score stableford points with.
Course is four shots easier = getting 4 shots fewer against par. I might try that approach for some of them who will ask me.

The CR-Par might ease some troubled minds, but I fear it will further perplex some others as well.

That is why 'Standardising Par' is part of these changes and I would like to think that your club adopts this to avoid the confusion.

 

[nickjdavis]

WHS (DotGolf) Portal - Reports - Handicapping - WHS Course/Handicap Tables (2nd report down after Member HI Listing)

cheers....I was looking for a totally new report/calculator....not realising that the Course Handicap table generator had "new additional functionality"!!

 

[Voyager EMH]

That is why 'Standardising Par' is part of these changes and I would like to think that your club adopts this to avoid the confusion.

Par is standardised. Its 70 from whites and yellows.

Red tees it is 68 because 439 and 446 yards are not long enough to be par-5s for men. Don't think anyone will be confused about that. We have a 453 yard par 4 off whites.

I may not have understood what you meant by confusion regarding par. I don't think there will be much confusion about that, merely the scoring of 36 points on a course that they get 4 or 5 fewer shots on that has two more holes they can't possibly reach in regulation.

Of course, if you can forget about par and stableford points and think about what gross score achieves what score differential, then it makes sense because that is not changing.

 

[D-S]

Par is standardised. Its 70 from whites and yellows.

Red tees it is 68 because 439 and 446 yards are not long enough to be par-5s for men. Don't think anyone will be confused about that. We have a 453 yard par 4 off whites.

I may not have understood what you meant by confusion regarding par. I don't think there will be much confusion about that, merely the scoring of 36 points on a course that they get 4 or 5 fewer shots on that has two more holes they can't possibly reach in regulation.

Of course, if you can forget about par and stableford points and think about what gross score achieves what score differential, then it makes sense because that is not changing.

I think you may have misunderstood Standardising Par. This will allow your club to make all the mens rated courses par 70, it is one of the April 2024 changes.

 

[Bdill93]

Par is standardised. Its 70 from whites and yellows.

Red tees it is 68 because 439 and 446 yards are not long enough to be par-5s for men. Don't think anyone will be confused about that. We have a 453 yard par 4 off whites.

I may not have understood what you meant by confusion regarding par. I don't think there will be much confusion about that, merely the scoring of 36 points on a course that they get 4 or 5 fewer shots on that has two more holes they can't possibly reach in regulation.

Of course, if you can forget about par and stableford points and think about what gross score achieves what score differential, then it makes sense because that is not changing.

Both our par 5's are 450ish...

 

[Voyager EMH]

I think you may have misunderstood Standardising Par. This will allow your club to make all the mens rated courses par 70, it is one of the April 2024 changes.

I thought I did not understand.

I don't think making our red course par 70 will help after April changes.
The CR-Par would then be 66.7 - 70 = -3.3 instead of 66.7 - 68 = -1.3
Chaps will notice the same reduction of 4 or 5 shots against par as opposed to play from the whites.

 

[Swango1980]

I think everyone is aware of the comparative difficulty of their various tee sets (if nothing else from the digfferent score differentials on their WHS record) which didn't necessarily mean our minds were 'corrupted', the difference will be seeing this actually reflected in ones CH.

Yeah, it is why I put " around corrupted, not thinking of a better word as I quickly typed the post.

Maybe influenced, trained or acclimatized would have worked better.

 

[D-S]

Par is standardised. Its 70 from whites and yellows.

Red tees it is 68 because 439 and 446 yards are not long enough to be par-5s for men. Don't think anyone will be confused about that. We have a 453 yard par 4 off whites.

I may not have understood what you meant by confusion regarding par. I don't think there will be much confusion about that, merely the scoring of 36 points on a course that they get 4 or 5 fewer shots on that has two more holes they can't possibly reach in regulation.

At least they will have two holes that they will be able to ‘reach in regulation’.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

The CR-Par might ease some troubled minds, but I fear it will further perplex some others as well.

Our medal tees will see 1.8 taken off everyone's playing handicap, I see an endless stream of questions next year once again. From my point of view, it's a move that should have been there fore the beginning, however I fear it will further alienate members who already curse WHS

 

[Voyager EMH]

Our medal tees will see 1.8 taken off everyone's playing handicap, I see an endless stream of questions next year once again. From my point of view, it's a move that should have been there fore the beginning, however I fear it will further alienate members who already curse WHS

Similar to what I've found at my club.
Pre WHS we had a par 70 that was SSS 69 from yellows and 71 from whites.
Just about everyone was used to 35 points from whites and 37 from yellows meant playing to handicap.
Course Ratings of 69.1 and 70.8 were pretty much in tune with this and there was no clamour for CR-Par to fix a problem that did not exist in most players' minds.
In April many players will be thrown into more confusion with CR-Par and the not rounding of Course Handicap until after the % for Playing Handicap is applied.
But if both of these had been done at the start, it would have made far more sense than introducing it three and a half years later.
CR-Par makes no difference to my thinking and I very much welcome the not rounding of CH until after the % for PH is applied.

 

[Voyager EMH]

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
At my club I find it has added to misconceptions and not improved understanding and acceptance of WHS.

The "losing a shot" misconception has become even more deeply ingrained than it was before.
Yellow tees means subtracting 0.9 which many interpret as "losing a shot" and then 95% means "losing another shot". This is generally disliked.
And yet "gaining a shot or shots" is not a phrase I ever hear when the course is played from the white tees.
A chap might be 13.3 and then gets to play a comp off the whites off 16. (CR 70.8, Par 70, SR 132) No complaints or moaning ever about gaining 3 shots.

And yet 33 people in a roll-up off the yellows and the majority decision will be 100% CH, because they don't like "losing another shot" as CR-Par has already subtracted 0.9

Any single figure players in the roll-up have to put-up, shut-up or PO.

No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Our medal tees will see 1.8 taken off everyone's playing handicap, I see an endless stream of questions next year once again. From my point of view, it's a move that should have been there fore the beginning, however I fear it will further alienate members who already curse WHS

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
At my club I find it has added to misconceptions and not improved understanding and acceptance of WHS.

The "losing a shot" misconception has become even more deeply ingrained than it was before.
Yellow tees means subtracting 0.9 which many interpret as "losing a shot" and then 95% means "losing another shot". This is generally disliked.
And yet "gaining a shot or shots" is not a phrase I ever hear when the course is played from the white tees.
A chap might be 13.3 and then gets to play a comp off the whites off 16. (CR 70.8, Par 70, SR 132) No complaints or moaning ever about gaining 3 shots.

And yet 33 people in a roll-up off the yellows and the majority decision will be 100% CH, because they don't like "losing another shot" as CR-Par has already subtracted 0.9

Any single figure players in the roll-up have to put-up, shut-up or PO.

No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

Indeed, and we've seen numbers drop to lowest I can ever recall now. Still someone will say this is "hearsay" and another will say I'm wrong. Sest lavvy

 

[cliveb]

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
...
No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

How can aligning the way we do it in Britain to be the same as the rest of the world - given that this is supposed to be a world system - be a backward step?
It was silly not to include CR-Par right from the start.

 

[Voyager EMH]

How can aligning the way we do it in Britain to be the same as the rest of the world - given that this is supposed to be a world system - be a backward step?
It was silly not to include CR-Par right from the start.

You have completely missed my point.

It has been a backward step in terms of the understanding and acceptance of a very good system, in general, at my club.
The backwards step has been made many players at my club.

I have reported what I have observed at my club. I have not made a statement regarding whether the introduction of CR-Par is a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

How can aligning the way we do it in Britain to be the same as the rest of the world - given that this is supposed to be a world system - be a backward step?
It was silly not to include CR-Par right from the start.

But we're not, everywhere has carve outs, Spain has one GP card per month, Dubai they simply enter a gross score at the end of the round, they don;t even enter hole by hole, USA has winter non-counting periods that differe from state to state, whereas we've been told that is a no-no.

It's a world system in name only.

 

[Swango1980]

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
At my club I find it has added to misconceptions and not improved understanding and acceptance of WHS.

The "losing a shot" misconception has become even more deeply ingrained than it was before.
Yellow tees means subtracting 0.9 which many interpret as "losing a shot" and then 95% means "losing another shot". This is generally disliked.
And yet "gaining a shot or shots" is not a phrase I ever hear when the course is played from the white tees.
A chap might be 13.3 and then gets to play a comp off the whites off 16. (CR 70.8, Par 70, SR 132) No complaints or moaning ever about gaining 3 shots.

And yet 33 people in a roll-up off the yellows and the majority decision will be 100% CH, because they don't like "losing another shot" as CR-Par has already subtracted 0.9

Any single figure players in the roll-up have to put-up, shut-up or PO.

No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

Well, from my point of view, it has been the complete opposite. Golfers seem a lot more comfortable now in understanding it, as they get 1 shot less of the easier yellow course compared to whites. Whereas before, most people either got the same, or even one shot less off WHITES, which was baffling to many.

 

[wjemather]

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
At my club I find it has added to misconceptions and not improved understanding and acceptance of WHS.

The "losing a shot" misconception has become even more deeply ingrained than it was before.
Yellow tees means subtracting 0.9 which many interpret as "losing a shot" and then 95% means "losing another shot". This is generally disliked.
And yet "gaining a shot or shots" is not a phrase I ever hear when the course is played from the white tees.
A chap might be 13.3 and then gets to play a comp off the whites off 16. (CR 70.8, Par 70, SR 132) No complaints or moaning ever about gaining 3 shots.

And yet 33 people in a roll-up off the yellows and the majority decision will be 100% CH, because they don't like "losing another shot" as CR-Par has already subtracted 0.9

Any single figure players in the roll-up have to put-up, shut-up or PO.

No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

I'm glad to here your roll-up isn't over-complicating it for themselves by trying to apply 95% unnecessarily.

 

[Orikoru]

We've had a whole season with CR-Par.
At my club I find it has added to misconceptions and not improved understanding and acceptance of WHS.

The "losing a shot" misconception has become even more deeply ingrained than it was before.
Yellow tees means subtracting 0.9 which many interpret as "losing a shot" and then 95% means "losing another shot". This is generally disliked.
And yet "gaining a shot or shots" is not a phrase I ever hear when the course is played from the white tees.
A chap might be 13.3 and then gets to play a comp off the whites off 16. (CR 70.8, Par 70, SR 132) No complaints or moaning ever about gaining 3 shots.

And yet 33 people in a roll-up off the yellows and the majority decision will be 100% CH, because they don't like "losing another shot" as CR-Par has already subtracted 0.9

Any single figure players in the roll-up have to put-up, shut-up or PO.

No improvement to understanding of the system. No progress. A backward step in this regard.

How can it not feel like that though? My index has gone up to 15.0 but I still only get 13 shots when playing a competition. And consequently I still need to shoot 13 over ish to get a decent cut. The index itself feels worthless.

 

[wjemather]

How can it not feel like that though? My index has gone up to 15.0 but I still only get 13 shots when playing a competition. And consequently I still need to shoot 13 over ish to get a decent cut. The index itself feels worthless.

If you pretty much only play one course from the same tees it is harder to see the point than if you play a multitude of courses from an array of different tees.