CR-Par

[Swango1980]

I wasnt suggesting it figured in their explanation. But that it did in their behind closed doors discussion.

My understanding is that handicaps will not noticeably change for anyone as a result of CR-Par.

It is not intended to help low guys in anyway. Low guys are not considered to be in need of any help. Other than possibly their understanding that WHS is fair to them as it is.

Handicaps will noticeably change at courses where CR is very different to Par. I know some courses, for example, where it is much lower than Par. Especially off yellows tees, and even more so for red tees if rated for men.

At courses where CR and Par are similar, no major difference to course handicap. However, even those players at those courses will feel the difference when they then go and play other courses where CR-Par is a relatively big number

 

[Voyager EMH]

I wasnt suggesting it figured in their explanation. But that it did in their behind closed doors discussion.

My understanding is that handicaps will not noticeably change for anyone as a result of CR-Par.

It is not intended to help low guys in anyway. Low guys are not considered to be in need of any help. Other than possibly their understanding that WHS is fair to them as it is.

CR-Par will not change the outcomes of comps in any significant way.
CR-Par makes no difference to score differentials or the handicap assessments and adjustments.

 

[Backsticks]

CR-Par will not change the outcomes of comps in any significant way.
CR-Par makes no difference to score differentials or the handicap assessments and adjustments.

Exactly. It just changes net scores and Stableford points. Generally for the lower I will guess. So only a perception change that scores needed to win are lower than they have been the last 3 years .
Although possibly the perception harm has already been done.

 

[Backsticks]

CR-Par will not change the outcomes of comps in any significant way.
CR-Par makes no difference to score differentials or the handicap assessments and adjustments.

I mean handicap indexes will not change. Playing hc will. Resulting in generally lower Stbl points, or higher nets in medal.

 

[rulefan]

I mean handicap indexes will not change. Playing hc will. Resulting in generally lower Stbl points, or higher nets in medal.

Depending of course on the relationship between Par and CR. +ve, = or -ve

 

[D-S]

I mean handicap indexes will not change. Playing hc will. Resulting in generally lower Stbl points, or higher nets in medal.

Entirely depends on tees used/chosen. At my course on one set of tees (standard summer competition tees) my CH will be 1.6 higher, at another 0.4 lower and at another 2.4 lower.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I mean handicap indexes will not change. Playing hc will. Resulting in generally lower Stbl points, or higher nets in medal.

Nett scores and stableford points are there to give finishing positions in comps. They are merely an indicator - not significant numbers in themselves.
These finishing positions will not change in any significant way after the introduction of CR-Par.

 

[D-S]

I wasnt suggesting it figured in their explanation. But that it did in their behind closed doors discussion.

My understanding is that handicaps will not noticeably change for anyone as a result of CR-Par.

It is not intended to help low guys in anyway. Low guys are not considered to be in need of any help. Other than possibly their understanding that WHS is fair to them as it is.

Unfortunately we don’t have their behind closed doors discussion minutes but it may well have done. The EG reasons (as discussed by their Head of Handicaps in the podcast they have released) are more and varied than many thought and inform some of the other changes, as well the often expressed regret that they didn’t do this back in November 2020,

 

[Backsticks]

Nett scores and stableford points are there to give finishing positions in comps. They are merely an indicator - not significant numbers in themselves.
These finishing positions will not change in any significant way after the introduction of CR-Par.

They are significant in the perception and credibility of WHS though, and had scores been lower by a shot or two over the last three years, there might not have been quite the same - WHS is crazy, it takes 45 points to win now ! - outcry.
But I fear the harm is done done, and its shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

 

[doublebogey7]

I wasnt suggesting it figured in their explanation. But that it did in their behind closed doors discussion.

My understanding is that handicaps will not noticeably change for anyone as a result of CR-Par.

It is not intended to help low guys in anyway. Low guys are not considered to be in need of any help. Other than possibly their understanding that WHS is fair to them as it is.

Yes sorry wrong terminology I should have revered to course or playing handicaps.

Never the less I am not sure why you think it would even figure in their behind closed doors discussion, if it will have nil effect or indeed increase stableford scoring on average.

 

[Swango1980]

They are significant in the perception and credibility of WHS though, and had scores been lower by a shot or two over the last three years, there might not have been quite the same - WHS is crazy, it takes 45 points to win now ! - outcry.
But I fear the harm is done done, and its shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I suspect massive scores will still be perceived as such, even if 45 points becomes 43 points, or 48 points becomes 46. The scores will still be the same absolute difference beyond most of the other scores.

In my opinion, the big scores are a result of:

• new golfers with considerably less scores than 20 on their record. Their index is made up of very limited rounds, sometimes as few as 3. Given that an experienced golfer could submit 3 consecutive rounds massively worse than their ability just because of poor form, then the same will be true for beginners submitting their first scores. And beyond that, many of these new golfers would be expected to improve considerably anyway. My opinion has always been that WHS could deal with this much better when limited scores are available, but we are where we are. After Covid, there were many many new golfers, and so this has probably intensified this.
• Handicaps can go up very quickly, so even experienced golfers can get 3 or 4 shots back pretty quickly. Furthermore, if there are golfers out there who lose focus and commitment early in rounds after they hit a poor shot, their last 20 scores may be boosted by more bad scores creeping into their top 8. I suspect WHS helps those who maybe only shoot great scores 10% of the time, and the rest of the time are very very average to awful. And it may not help guys who give it 100% all the time, good or bad golf, and have very steady scores around and beyond their top 8. Although the hard cap only allows an increase of 5, I suspect there are golfers out there who's low index is nowhere near as low as it could be, simply because they are hugely inconsistent due to a poor mentality. I'm not sure the same would have been true pre WHS, as big cuts would kick in after the excellent scores 10% of the time, and then the rest of the time they'd only increase 0.1 a round, and only if outside buffer.

 

[Swango1980]

Yes sorry wrong terminology I should have revered to course or playing handicaps.

Never the less I am not sure why you think it would even figure in their behind closed doors discussion, if it will have nil effect or indeed increase stableford scoring on average.

If I was to hazard a guess, the primary reason that it is being changed, and discussed behind the scenes, was to simply move a step closer to be consistent with the rest of the world. Question is, would they change to how we do it, or vice versa?

When WHS came out, England Golf made a big deal in publicity to the normal golfing folk that they'd see handicaps change from course to course based on difficulty. Not RELATIVE difficulty between low and high handicappers, just based on difficulty. So, for 99% of golfers (the types that don't come on these forums), they got a big shock when this promise didn't seem to come true. They were going to much longer, harder courses and playing off the same or similar handicap. Maybe even a lower handicap sometimes. Lower handicappers would feel next to no change at all, wherever they played. Then the arguments about Slope begin, golfers saying this or that slope is wrong because this course is harder than that one, etc.

However, I suspect the UK authorities decided to be less "purist", and acknowledged that 99% of golfers see a relevance in Par. Adding CR-Par embeds this within the handicap calculation, and golfers will finally see how the absolute difficulty of a course has on the number of shots they get. The integrity of the system remains, as the HI calculation is effectively the same, and yet the system now accounts for absolute difficulty AND relative difficulty.

 

[IanMcC]

I have a theory about big scores winning comps now, as intimated by so many on here. We do not see that at our club. Quite the reverse in fact. Winning scores are (generally) worse under WHS than under UHS.
At one or two clubs round our way, however, it is now impossible to beat them in a match, and their winning scores are significantly better than under UHS.
My theory is that the M&H people are not applying Penalty Scores correctly. If someone does not complete the minimum number of holes, or does not submit a score in a comp, they should get a Penalty Score of CR + CH. This is usually a neutral score, which will affect the HI only marginally, but usually downwards. If this is not applied to the software, then nett double bogies will be applied to the players record, pushing up their HI significantly once a few of these scores appear on their record, and in turn pushing the winning scores at that club higher.

 

[D-S]

Some interesting points from James Luke EG Head of Handicapping on this subject.
"Everyone who was involved in the original decision not to include CR-Par at now hold their hands up and say that they were wrong".
He also said:-
- that this will make mixed tee and mixed gender competitions far easier for most golfers to understand
- it will dispel the myth re slope rating being the sole measure of difficulty
- "it'll give you the shots you need to get round a course", it will make your handicap more portable and adaptable to the course you are playing, currently you may have the same CH over a 5000 and a 7500 yard course.
- it will make the move to rating short courses 1500/750 yards 18/9 holes, more comprehensible
- it will help with the standardising of par, making the move of different standards and different genders to multiple tee sets easier.

Additionally he points out that the 4BB software might not be ready from 1/4/24.

 

[wjemather]

Additionally he points out that the 4BB software might not be ready from 1/4/24.

This was hinted at in the initial comms.

 

[D-S]

I noticed that the WHS Portal now has CR-Par tables with a useful calculator for each tee and handicap allowance (95/90/85/75%).

I haven't bothered to work mine out so I was interested to check mine out.

My HI is 5.3, my CH off now Blues 5, Yellows 6, Whites 6.

From 1/4/24 my CH will be Blues 3, Yellows 6, Whites 8.

I know its the same for everyone so relatively no change, the handicap calculation is the same so no change etc. etc.

However, it will feel different getting shots (whether you agree with this concept or not) on some holes now off the whites and losing them off the Blues.

 

[Swango1980]

I noticed that the WHS Portal now has CR-Par tables with a useful calculator for each tee and handicap allowance (95/90/85/75%).

I haven't bothered to work mine out so I was interested to check mine out.

My HI is 5.3, my CH off now Blues 5, Yellows 6, Whites 6.

From 1/4/24 my CH will be Blues 3, Yellows 6, Whites 8.

I know its the same for everyone so relatively no change, the handicap calculation is the same so no change etc. etc.

However, it will feel different getting shots (whether you agree with this concept or not) on some holes now off the whites and losing them off the Blues.

It might feel weird to begin with, because change often does that to a person.

However, it appears your Blue Course is significantly easier than your White Course, given you get 5 shots less. If your mind had not been "corrupted" by what has been before, and instead you were coming with a complete fresh mind to golf, it would probably make a lot of sense that you get quite a few more shots on the white course.

 

[nickjdavis]

I noticed that the WHS Portal now has CR-Par tables with a useful calculator for each tee and handicap allowance (95/90/85/75%).

I haven't bothered to work mine out so I was interested to check mine out.

My HI is 5.3, my CH off now Blues 5, Yellows 6, Whites 6.

From 1/4/24 my CH will be Blues 3, Yellows 6, Whites 8.

I know its the same for everyone so relatively no change, the handicap calculation is the same so no change etc. etc.

However, it will feel different getting shots (whether you agree with this concept or not) on some holes now off the whites and losing them off the Blues.

Where are you seeing this? i cant find anything in the Dotgolf portal or on my England Golf login page.

 

[D-S]

Where are you seeing this? i cant find anything in the Dotgolf portal or on my England Golf login page.

WHS (DotGolf) Portal - Reports - Handicapping - WHS Course/Handicap Tables (2nd report down after Member HI Listing)

 

[Voyager EMH]

HI 4.3

Currently White 5, Yellow 5, Red 5

From April White 6, Yellow 4, Red 3.

Par drops by two shots off the reds. Two par-5s become par-4s of 439 and 446 yards. Not reachable in two for the majority of chaps, but were/are reachable in 3 from whites/yellows.

I think most chaps will understand going up a shot off whites and down a shot of yellows. Par 70 from both.
But it is the scoring of 36 points off reds that will flummox many. Two holes become a shot harder, yet the handicap has come down 2 shots. (4 shots harder?)
Trying to persuade them that at 48 yards shorter per hole on average than the whites, the red course is 4 and a half shots easier - will be a task.

Shame, because some were coming round to the perception that all courses were same difficulty/easiness, because CR and SR made it so. It still is, of course, but that might be what they become unsure of due to the change in handicaps that they score stableford points with.
Course is four and a half shots easier = getting 4 or 5 shots fewer against par. I might try that approach for some of them who will ask me.

The CR-Par might ease some troubled minds, but I fear it will further perplex some others as well.