CR-Par

[Wabinez]

Our cr is 67.7 and par is 70, so CH to drop by 2.3...... Members will be chuffed. We're wales, and they are following suit

#PlayBetter

 

[Voyager EMH]

Our cr is 67.7 and par is 70, so CH to drop by 2.3...... Members will be chuffed. We're wales, and they are following suit

Shooting the same scores will give all members the same Score Differentials and thus the same Handicap Index.
With all players dropping by 2.3 then competition between players and outcomes of events will be pretty much the same as well.
There should be nothing to worry about.

Clinging to the perception of "I get x-shots on this course" is the root of misconception.
A player "gets shots" relative to other players, but gets no shots against the course.
Against the course a player achieves a Score Differential based on the gross score.
Gross score affects handicap adjustment. It was nett score in the previous system that affected handicap adjustment.

You make a gross score. This is your golf score. This is unaffected by CR-Par.
Your Score Differential is your "what I played to" score. This is unaffected by CR-Par.
Finishing places in competitions will be largely unaffected by CR-Par.

 

[Backsticks]

I always get shots.

The score differential is a bit of behind the scenes maths that calculates my handicap adjustment, and I pay no attention to it. I need to know the number if strokes I get as that figures my net or points scores. And I do want to know those. They tell me how I did relative to others. So I always check how many shots I have on a given day on my card before I hand it to a playing partner.

The first thing we discuss when signing off cards by the 18 will be - so, what did you have ? 34 points, you ? 32, damn you, heres your fiver.

Hands up anyone who has been asked : so, what was you score differential ?

 

[cliveb]

Here's a simple reason why moving to CR-Par is a good idea:
A huge number of players incorrectly regard scoring 36 points as "playing to handicap".
They've been doing so forever, even before WHS.
When we move to CR-Par, they will finally be correct.

 

[rulefan]

Here's a simple reason why moving to CR-Par is a good idea:
A huge number of players incorrectly regard scoring 36 points as "playing to handicap".
They've been doing so forever, even before WHS.
When we move to CR-Par, they will finally be correct.

My impression is that most simply spoke about net scores or sometimes net against par. eg 2 under, 6 over etc
Maybe because our comps are predominately medals.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Here's a simple reason why moving to CR-Par is a good idea:
A huge number of players incorrectly regard scoring 36 points as "playing to handicap".
They've been doing so forever, even before WHS.
When we move to CR-Par, they will finally be correct.

I don't believe this is true. It depends how we define "playing to handicap".
Score Differential is "what you played to".
Achieving a Score Differential that is as near as possible to one's Handicap Index can be viewed as "playing to handicap".
This will not be 36 points for every player, because of the 95% stableford play allowance.

Example: Par 70, CR 70, SR 113. (CR-Par = 0 in this instance)

HI = 5.0 and CH = 5. Then 5 over par = 36 points (PH = 5) - Score Differential = 5.0 - playing exactly to handicap.

HI = 52.0 and CH = 52. Then 52 over par = 33 points (because PH = 49) - Score Differential = 52.0 - playing exactly to handicap.

Both players have "played to handicap", but the higher handicap player has scored 33 points.

Unless I'm wrong, of course.

 

[cliveb]

I don't believe this is true. It depends how we define "playing to handicap".
Score Differential is "what you played to".
Achieving a Score Differential that is as near as possible to one's Handicap Index can be viewed as "playing to handicap".
This will not be 36 points for every player, because of the 95% stableford play allowance.

Example: Par 70, CR 70, SR 113. (CR-Par = 0 in this instance)

HI = 5.0 and CH = 5. Then 5 over par = 36 points (PH = 5) - Score Differential = 5.0 - playing exactly to handicap.

HI = 52.0 and CH = 52. Then 52 over par = 33 points (because PH = 49) - Score Differential = 52.0 - playing exactly to handicap.

Both players have "played to handicap", but the higher handicap player has scored 33 points.

Unless I'm wrong, of course.

The 95% PH adjustment is only there for the purposes of placement in a competition.

Technically you are correct, but score differential isn't what most players remember about their round.
The vast majority of players tend to count their stableford points (unless they're playing in a medal comp).
For handicapping purposes full CH is what's important, and with the switch to CR-Par, 36 points against CH will indeed be playing to handicap.
So all these players who have for years been assuming that 36 points is "playing to handicap" will finally be right.

 

[PJ87]

Here's a simple reason why moving to CR-Par is a good idea:
A huge number of players incorrectly regard scoring 36 points as "playing to handicap".
They've been doing so forever, even before WHS.
When we move to CR-Par, they will finally be correct.

Fully agree.

it also helps with the understanding of WHS.. and the misconception that a high slope automatically means its hard.. when its the CR vs Par that shows the real difficulty.

ive done the calculations a few times in other threads but "easier" courses than ours (im talking 68 CR vs par 72) I get more shots compared to our course (74 CR vs 72 par) because its not included in the calculation.. plenty of visitors wrongly believe its a lot easier (until they finish) because they get less shots than their home course.. (caveat here. im not disagreeing with @Voyager EMH im just saying what the average golfer sees not people who follows the indepths of handicap)

the one that stands out for me was when we were re rated I get more shots now off our easier yellow tees as opposed to our harder white tees..

 

[Swango1980]

Fully agree.

it also helps with the understanding of WHS.. and the misconception that a high slope automatically means its hard.. when its the CR vs Par that shows the real difficulty.

ive done the calculations a few times in other threads but "easier" courses than ours (im talking 68 CR vs par 72) I get more shots compared to our course (74 CR vs 72 par) because its not included in the calculation.. plenty of visitors wrongly believe its a lot easier (until they finish) because they get less shots than their home course.. (caveat here. im not disagreeing with @Voyager EMH im just saying what the average golfer sees not people who follows the indepths of handicap)

the one that stands out for me was when we were re rated I get more shots now off our easier yellow tees as opposed to our harder white tees..

Absolutely. Some of the biggest moans I hear is when a golfer goes to a course, that is clearly "harder" than their own, and yet they have the same or similar handicap. Then golfers moan about the slope being wrong, as one course is clearly harder than another. And very low handicappers will pretty much have the same course handicap everywhere.

That should all come out in the wash once CR-Par, as golfers should generally see big jumps, up and down, in their handicaps when they go to very hard or easy courses. Defined really as being the difference between CR-Par.

 

[PJ87]

Absolutely. Some of the biggest moans I hear is when a golfer goes to a course, that is clearly "harder" than their own, and yet they have the same or similar handicap. Then golfers moan about the slope being wrong, as one course is clearly harder than another. And very low handicappers will pretty much have the same course handicap everywhere.

That should all come out in the wash once CR-Par, as golfers should generally see big jumps, up and down, in their handicaps when they go to very hard or easy courses. Defined really as being the difference between CR-Par.

exactly. There is a massive misunderstanding that slope = difficulty when in reality it isnt. I mean our slope has dropped to 111 whites 112 yellows.. but in reality slope is the difference between a scratch and bogey golfer and what they would score.. our course punishes each equally.. ie if you go in the long rough, or in the gorse.. no matter your handicap you suffer.. hence lower slope.. however a course down the road off the whites is 137 slope.. an easier course for sure (I can say ive been a member of both) but they have things to go over at the yardage higher handicappers would hit.. thus increasing the slope as a low index would score better there than the "scratch golfer"

then again people should need to think about slope..

 

[Backsticks]

exactly. There is a massive misunderstanding that slope = difficulty when in reality it isnt. I mean our slope has dropped to 111 whites 112 yellows.. but in reality slope is the difference between a scratch and bogey golfer and what they would score.. our course punishes each equally.. ie if you go in the long rough, or in the gorse.. no matter your handicap you suffer.. hence lower slope.. however a course down the road off the whites is 137 slope.. an easier course for sure (I can say ive been a member of both) but they have things to go over at the yardage higher handicappers would hit.. thus increasing the slope as a low index would score better there than the "scratch golfer"

then again people should need to think about slope..

The slope = difficulty is entirely the fault of the Congu region going their own way and different to the rest of the world. Different to their sell that WHS would adapt to different courses. Different to much of the online and USA based media people are reading. And the misunderstanding confirmed by the fact that slope generally does increase with difficulty.

And now doubling back to correct the screw up, while it has to be done, will add even more confusion and misunderstanding.
A huge own goal, and shows how home unions are fundamentally laggards and reluctant embracers of WHS. A mess entirely of their own making, and no fault of the footsoldier amateur golfer.

 

[rulefan]

What a lot of nonsense is being written about slope and par.

1) Par is simply an arbitrary indication of length. In fact two courses of the same length can have different pars of perhaps 10 strokes. It depends on how the club has set the par for each individual hole based on length only.
A par 72 can be anything from 4320 yards to 8820 yards!

2) The Course Rating is a standard measure for determining the difficulty of a course for a scratch player. The basic starting point.
The CR for the two mythical courses above could be about 63 and 83

3) The Bogey Rating is a standard measure for determining the difficulty of a course for a bogey player (About a 20 capper).

4) Slope is simply a way of expressing the RELATIVE difficulty of a course for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.

 

[Swango1980]

What a lot of nonsense is being written about slope and par.
1) Par is simply an arbitrary indication of length. In fact two courses of the same length can have different pars of perhaps 10 strokes. It depends on how the club has set the par for each individual hole based on length only.
A par 72 can be anything from 4320 yards to 8820 yards!
2) The Course Rating is a standard measure for determining the difficulty of a course for a scratch player. The basic starting point.
The CR for the two mythical courses above could be about 63 and 83
3) The Bogey Rating is a standard measure for determining the difficulty of a course for a bogey player (About a 20 capper).
4) Slope is simply a way of expressing the RELATIVE difficulty of a course for a bogey player as opposed to a scratch player.

I think everyone in here understands points 2, 3 and 4. However, Par is not arbitrary. This is why you are unlike to ever play a 100 yard par 5, or a 600 yard par 3

A golfer plays a 450 yard par 4, they'll probably find it more difficult than a 300 yard par 4. The difficulty of this hole is not reflected in par, but is within the CR. And, for the course as a whole, once CR-Par is taken into account, at least this difficulty is now embedded within the handicap

 

[D-S]

What a lot of nonsense is being written about slope and par.

1) Par is simply an arbitrary indication of length. In fact two courses of the same length can have different pars of perhaps 10 strokes. It depends on how the club has set the par for each individual hole based on length only.
A par 72 can be anything from 4320 yards to 8820 yards!

Correct, par is simply an arbitrary number and is a variable feast.
However, whether some like it or not, in the vast majority of golf played it is the yardstick by which people measure their performance either in number of shots (net or gross) above or below par or in terms of Stableford.
Exactly because of its arbitrary nature, it requires another measure in players’ course handicap to give a sensible actual measure of performance. This is why CR-Par is an obvious element to have in the calculation of a player’s course handicap.
For the life of me I can’t think why CONGU countries decided that it should not be part of the calculation immediately in the transition to WHS.

 

[Swango1980]

Correct, par is simply an arbitrary number and is a variable feast.
However, whether some like it or not, in the vast majority of golf played it is the yardstick by which people measure their performance either in number of shots (net or gross) above or below par or in terms of Stableford.
Exactly because of its arbitrary nature, it requires another measure in players’ course handicap to give a sensible actual measure of performance. This is why CR-Par is an obvious element to have in the calculation of a player’s course handicap.
For the life of me I can’t think why CONGU countries decided that it should not be part of the calculation immediately in the transition to WHS.

I believe it is because as it wasn't included within the handicap pre WHS, they felt it would be less confusing for golfers if they didn't include is post WHS.

They were wrong, and maybe why too much knowledge by decision makers they can miss the simpler things that confuse regular golfers.

While rolling out WHS, they highly publicised how handicaps would change to reflect difficulty. The common man felt that meant absolute difficulty, but it didn't. So they got confused as hell when their handicap didn't change as expected. And at my course some even get an extra shot off yellows compared to whites!!!

 

[Alan Clifford]

If you score a gross of par plus course handicap, the resulting differential is the same as your handicap index (apart from the difference introduced by rounding of the course handicap). You could call this "playing to handicap".

 

[Voyager EMH]

The 95% PH adjustment is only there for the purposes of placement in a competition.

Technically you are correct, but score differential isn't what most players remember about their round.
The vast majority of players tend to count their stableford points (unless they're playing in a medal comp).
For handicapping purposes full CH is what's important, and with the switch to CR-Par, 36 points against CH will indeed be playing to handicap.
So all these players who have for years been assuming that 36 points is "playing to handicap" will finally be right.

Stableford points are only there for the purposes of placement in a competition.
In Stableford or medal the strokeplay handicap must be used.
Stableford points or nett score done with Course Handicap is an error or misconception.
You score Stableford points only one way and that is with Playing Handicap.
Stableford is a strokeplay format. It is not a handicapping format.

Unless I'm wrong.

 

[Backsticks]

Playing H can be the same as Course HC if 95% is not used. Or in a friendly round most just use their course HC.

 

[wjemather]

Stableford points are only there for the purposes of placement in a competition.
In Stableford or medal the strokeplay handicap must be used.
Stableford points or nett score done with Course Handicap is an error or misconception.
You score Stableford points only one way and that is with Playing Handicap.
Stableford is a strokeplay format. It is not a handicapping format.

Unless I'm wrong.

Not entirely wrong (Stableford is a strokeplay format), but close.

And, WHS is based on Stableford scoring.

 

[wjemather]

Playing H can be the same as Course HC if 95% is not used. Or in a friendly round most just use their course HC.

As they should.