sjw
Well-known member
Thought we probably needed a thread to get this discussion out of the irritations thread, as it's becoming a source of irritation itself for many people!
CR and Slope - are some courses harder than others? And other course difficulty discussion
- Thread starter sjw
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sunshine
Well-known member
What I think:
1. Old system (SSS) probably worked for scratch golfers but not for bogey golfers. SSS +1 for example didn't reflect that the course might be 4 or 5 shots harder for a bogey golfer.
2. WHS CR is the same as SSS. I'm not a scratch golfer so I can't comment on whether it is fair (or SSS previously).
3. WHS slope rating is a big step in the right direction to equalise scoring difficulty for bogey golfers. My gut feel is that the difference is even larger.
This is just anecdotal. People I know with handicaps at shorter or easier courses don't get close to handicap when they play longer or tougher courses. The difference is most notable off the tee, where tougher courses have long carries to reach the fairway, and around the green, where deep bunkers or rough demand more skill to get up and down.
Overall, does it really matter though?
A member from a championship course like Royal St George's is unlikely to enter an open at a short easy municpal so the liklihood they clean up all the prizes is just theoretical.
1. Old system (SSS) probably worked for scratch golfers but not for bogey golfers. SSS +1 for example didn't reflect that the course might be 4 or 5 shots harder for a bogey golfer.
2. WHS CR is the same as SSS. I'm not a scratch golfer so I can't comment on whether it is fair (or SSS previously).
3. WHS slope rating is a big step in the right direction to equalise scoring difficulty for bogey golfers. My gut feel is that the difference is even larger.
This is just anecdotal. People I know with handicaps at shorter or easier courses don't get close to handicap when they play longer or tougher courses. The difference is most notable off the tee, where tougher courses have long carries to reach the fairway, and around the green, where deep bunkers or rough demand more skill to get up and down.
Overall, does it really matter though?
A member from a championship course like Royal St George's is unlikely to enter an open at a short easy municpal so the liklihood they clean up all the prizes is just theoretical.
sjw
Well-known member
The question I have is, what do you mean by "don't get close to handicap"? Can you give an example?
D
Deleted member 25172
Guest
I think it's a discussion where one side are talking about oranges and the other half is talking about apples.
No one with a sane mind could possibly say that there aren't harder or easier courses.
Just because a system is set in place to make it as equitable as possible for all players doesn't change the fact that one course will demand more shots to get around than another.
No one with a sane mind could possibly say that there aren't harder or easier courses.
Just because a system is set in place to make it as equitable as possible for all players doesn't change the fact that one course will demand more shots to get around than another.
DeanoMK
Club Champion
Yes, some courses are considerably harder than others.
I'm convinced a combination of the CR and/or Slope are incorrect for Leighton Buzzard as wherever I go, I always get additional shots where I don't believe I should.
Whilst LB isn't the longest, it is a tricky course - I've recently played Silverstone and Mowsbury and at both courses my CH is 2 or 3 higher than LB and I consider both to be easier than LB and my scoring always displays this, shooting 13 over gross at the former and 11 over gross at the latter on those recent rounds.
I'm convinced a combination of the CR and/or Slope are incorrect for Leighton Buzzard as wherever I go, I always get additional shots where I don't believe I should.
Whilst LB isn't the longest, it is a tricky course - I've recently played Silverstone and Mowsbury and at both courses my CH is 2 or 3 higher than LB and I consider both to be easier than LB and my scoring always displays this, shooting 13 over gross at the former and 11 over gross at the latter on those recent rounds.
Neilds
Assistant Pro
I think that courses are 'more difficult' for many different reasons. Give me a 120 yard shot to a green and I am confident I will hit the green, but put a small pond in between and things go a bit wrong (to say the least). Other people may have issues with carry to the fairway, fairway bunkers, lots of greenside bunkers, doglegs, tree lined tee boxes, elevated tees, etc. Just because one person thinks it is easier doesn't mean this is the same for all
rulefan
Tour Winner
Is it not more to do with the Stroke Index rather than the Course Rating.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
WHS aside for the moment I Have played nearly every course in Dorset and quite a few in the surrounding Counties.
In simple terms there are very tough courses and some very easy courses.
Now with the WHS I do not truly believe that Slope and course rating has adjusted handicaps for each of these courses
eg (Without naming it) One Somerset club has the same slope rating as ours so I do not get any extra shots playing there. Their course rating is 1.3 higher than par ours 1.4 under the par. I have played there a lot and the best score I have ever achieved is nett 4 over.
When it come to match play I less sure the system evens things out a lot
In simple terms there are very tough courses and some very easy courses.
Now with the WHS I do not truly believe that Slope and course rating has adjusted handicaps for each of these courses
eg (Without naming it) One Somerset club has the same slope rating as ours so I do not get any extra shots playing there. Their course rating is 1.3 higher than par ours 1.4 under the par. I have played there a lot and the best score I have ever achieved is nett 4 over.
When it come to match play I less sure the system evens things out a lot
Slope refers only to the relative difficulty of a course between a scratch and a 20 hc. Thus tells you nothing whatsoever about the difficulty of a course. Unless your hc swing between 0 and 20 in a sort period.
CR does indicate the difficulty. CR-Par, despite flaws indicates it even better.
CR does indicate the difficulty. CR-Par, despite flaws indicates it even better.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Many people expressing that they "get shots" and/or "get more shots" on courses.
This is perhaps the source of some confusion and misconception.
"Getting Shots", or your Course Handicap, is for play with and against others not against the course.
Against the course you make a gross score (adjusted) and from this gross score a Score Differential is derived. In this process your CH (getting shots) plays no part.
An adjusted gross of 85 will give the same Score Differential for a 2-handicapper or a 22-handicapper. Their CHs (getting shots) is not recorded for handicapping purposes.
When you are comparing courses you need to look at what gross scores you need to make to achieve your desired range of score differentials.
At my home club I find it harder to achieve my desired scores from the yellow tees - shorter course.
This is a subjective view. Other players might have the opposite view.
We are not all the same type of golfer. We have differing strengths and weaknesses.
We are likely to have differing views on which courses we find harder or easier to achieve our desired Score Differentials.
The new system of CR and SR is a great attempt to equalise handicaps from different courses, in my view.
Handicaps are for playing with and against others - that is their purpose. Against the course we all play off scratch, albeit with a nett double bogey limit.
During the next two weeks, I will be playing the two courses in my county where the CR is more than two shots over par.
Many will view these as "long tough courses". This is a true description to some extent.
But I do not experience either of these courses as "harder" to achieve my desired Score Differentials.
If I were a member of either of these courses, then I don't believe my HI would be significantly different from what it is now.
Painswick is a weird case. Course Rating is way below par and it has a low SR. it is a very short course.
I think I would be having a higher HI if I played there.
My HI of 3.8 might just get me a CH of 4 from the yellows, but the notion of "getting 4 shots on the course" is nonsense. I need to shoot level par to achieve a Score Differential of 3.3.
I would need to be 1 over par in order to beat my 8th best score.
At my home club, 6-over par would get that job done at the moment.
I find Painswick "tough".
Other players with differing strengths and weaknesses might have a completely different view.
It can not be and never will be a perfect system for everyone. We are all different types of golfer.
This is perhaps the source of some confusion and misconception.
"Getting Shots", or your Course Handicap, is for play with and against others not against the course.
Against the course you make a gross score (adjusted) and from this gross score a Score Differential is derived. In this process your CH (getting shots) plays no part.
An adjusted gross of 85 will give the same Score Differential for a 2-handicapper or a 22-handicapper. Their CHs (getting shots) is not recorded for handicapping purposes.
When you are comparing courses you need to look at what gross scores you need to make to achieve your desired range of score differentials.
At my home club I find it harder to achieve my desired scores from the yellow tees - shorter course.
This is a subjective view. Other players might have the opposite view.
We are not all the same type of golfer. We have differing strengths and weaknesses.
We are likely to have differing views on which courses we find harder or easier to achieve our desired Score Differentials.
The new system of CR and SR is a great attempt to equalise handicaps from different courses, in my view.
Handicaps are for playing with and against others - that is their purpose. Against the course we all play off scratch, albeit with a nett double bogey limit.
During the next two weeks, I will be playing the two courses in my county where the CR is more than two shots over par.
Many will view these as "long tough courses". This is a true description to some extent.
But I do not experience either of these courses as "harder" to achieve my desired Score Differentials.
If I were a member of either of these courses, then I don't believe my HI would be significantly different from what it is now.
Painswick is a weird case. Course Rating is way below par and it has a low SR. it is a very short course.
I think I would be having a higher HI if I played there.
My HI of 3.8 might just get me a CH of 4 from the yellows, but the notion of "getting 4 shots on the course" is nonsense. I need to shoot level par to achieve a Score Differential of 3.3.
I would need to be 1 over par in order to beat my 8th best score.
At my home club, 6-over par would get that job done at the moment.
I find Painswick "tough".
Other players with differing strengths and weaknesses might have a completely different view.
It can not be and never will be a perfect system for everyone. We are all different types of golfer.
I always get, or in fact, give myself, shots, even when not playing against others. It doesnt confuse me at all. Even if just an evening 9 on my own, I give myself 6 shots.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
You can "give yourself" however many shots you like.
The handicap system does not give anyone shots against the course when you return a score - it calculates a Score Differential from your gross score.
It is the perception of "difficult" courses, CR and SR that we are discussing here.
I say that we need to focus on Score Differential, and how this compares to Handicap Index, to have the best personalised assessment of "difficulty" of a course.
"Getting shots" is not relevant to this assessment.
CR and SR is an attempt to equalise difficulty of courses for everyone, but we will have differing personal views on different courses.
"Getting shots" is for play with and against others.
The shots I get dont know whether I am playing with or against others or not. I dont tell them either. I just get them on the first tee, and play on.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Who or what gives you these 'shots'.
Do 'they' take them away again when you finish the round?
The WHS gives them to me. They are there to access every time I play.
I have usually frittered them away by about the 12th...
But am given 11 nice shiny new ones the next time I tee up again.
cliveb
Head Pro
To nit-pick, it calculates an ADJUSTED differential, and to do so it sometimes needs to know how many shots you're getting.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
And the adjusted GROSS score is the one that remains on record. There is no recording of nett scores.
Your Score Differential is the best way to assess your play against the course, not your nett score or stableford points.
What Score Differentials you achieve, or are likely to achieve, on different courses is the best way to assess the relative difficulty of those courses for your style of play.
And to do this you need to focus mainly on your gross score, as your Score Differential is derived from your gross score, albeit with a nett double bogey limit.
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cliveb
Head Pro
I never said it records net scores, just that the system needs to know how many shots you get.
For example:
Par 4 hole, stroke index 10. Player scores 7. What does the handicapping system record as the adjusted gross score? If their course handicap is less than 10, it records a 6. If their CH is 10 or more, it records a 7. How does this not require the system to know how many shots they're getting?
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Getting a bit side-tracked here from the discussion about perception of difficult courses, CR and SR.
Gross Scores become Adjusted Gross Scores at times, as we all know. Score Differentials are derived from these gross scores.
Score Differentials are a player's best way to judge difficulty of different courses for their style of play, not nett scores or stableford points.
Gross Scores become Adjusted Gross Scores at times, as we all know. Score Differentials are derived from these gross scores.
Score Differentials are a player's best way to judge difficulty of different courses for their style of play, not nett scores or stableford points.
Looking up the CR, or CR-Par, on the app is much more convenient than playing a course 20 times. And probably also a more accurate comparison.
