Committees not understanding the rules

[woody69]

A few weeks ago a friend of mine was playing in a comp. He hit one off the tee and went forward to find it. After a few minutes, whilst his FCs continued to look he said he would go back to the tee and hit a provisional, which he did. However no sooner had he done it his original ball was found and he played on with that. He ended up posting the lowest nett and winning. He was telling me about it and I pointed out to him that as soon as he went back and hit his "provisional" it was not a provisional at all and was the ball in play and by playing his original he was playing the wrong ball and as he didn't correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground he is actually disqualified.

He decided to do the right thing and phoned up and DQ'd himself.

Fast forward to today and in his club champs he is playing with a member of the committee who does pretty much exactly the same thing as he did, except this was his 2nd he hit, struggled to find and went back to hit another whilst his FCs continued to look. My mate explains the rule to the committee member who calls the clubhouse asking for a ruling. He was told that as the original was found within 5 minutes then it is OK to continue with it even though he'd dropped another, so he played on and submitted his card. My mate said if that is the correct ruling he wants his DQ looked at, to which the guy said he would raise it with the committee.

I point out Decision 27-1/2 to my mate who agrees with me the committee guy is wrong, so raises it with them again in the clubhouse after the round, to which they just stick by their decision even though it's obviously wrong.

You wonder what you got to do when simple rules are misinterpreted.

 

[bluewolf]

I suspect that they're not misinterpreted, they're ignored. I've seen a few instances of rules being ignored by committees, especially when they don't want to rock the boat.

 

[DCB]

I'd say in this instance the committee guy got it wrong.

 

[Region3]

Had the "provisional" actually been hit, or just dropped?

Not sure if it makes a difference btw, just asking.

 

[woody69]

Had the "provisional" actually been hit, or just dropped?

Not sure if it makes a difference btw, just asking.

Both were struck, but it doesn't matter. 27-1/2 clearly states that as soon as a substituted ball is dropped it becomes the ball in play

 

[Spuddy]

Had the "provisional" actually been hit, or just dropped?

Not sure if it makes a difference btw, just asking.

It doesnt really make a difference. A dropped ball is in play however, if you are going back to the tee then the re-teed ball isnt in play until you hit it.

 

[Foxholer]

It is slightly different - back actually the same too!

As soon as a player puts another ball into play, then the original ball is lost (as defined by the rules of Golf, where you can actually be holding 2 balls (oe-er!) that are both lost!).

The difference in the 2 examples given is that a Tee shot must be subject to a stroke before being in play, while the 'non-tee-shot' is in play as soon as it is (correctly) dropped!

Committees generally do their best, but often need help getting Rules right - if they don't have assistance! So rather than getting upset with them, it's better to try to help - at least to a certain extent! And the consequences of getting a Rule wrong can be quite severe - a DQ as the OP stated!

The proper thing to do is to learn, or refer to, the process of Rule 3.3 (Doubt as to Procedure) - which can be a bit complicated - in order to prevent a DQ situation! There is potential danger in this approach (you have to get everything right as per the Rule), but the couple of times I've seen it used it has saved an accidental DQ! And, of course, if you are in a position to refer to 3.3, then you are probably in a position to get the correct ruling from the triggering situation in the first place!!

 

[duncan mackie]

A few weeks ago a friend of mine was playing in a comp. He hit one off the tee and went forward to find it. After a few minutes, whilst his FCs continued to look he said he would go back to the tee and hit a provisional, which he did. However no sooner had he done it his original ball was found and he played on with that. He ended up posting the lowest nett and winning. He was telling me about it and I pointed out to him that as soon as he went back and hit his "provisional" it was not a provisional at all and was the ball in play and by playing his original he was playing the wrong ball and as he didn't correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground he is actually disqualified.

He decided to do the right thing and phoned up and DQ'd himself.

Fast forward to today and in his club champs he is playing with a member of the committee who does pretty much exactly the same thing as he did, except this was his 2nd he hit, struggled to find and went back to hit another whilst his FCs continued to look. My mate explains the rule to the committee member who calls the clubhouse asking for a ruling. He was told that as the original was found within 5 minutes then it is OK to continue with it even though he'd dropped another, so he played on and submitted his card. My mate said if that is the correct ruling he wants his DQ looked at, to which the guy said he would raise it with the committee.

I point out Decision 27-1/2 to my mate who agrees with me the committee guy is wrong, so raises it with them again in the clubhouse after the round, to which they just stick by their decision even though it's obviously wrong.

You wonder what you got to do when simple rules are misinterpreted.

So simple that even after looking things up your mate somehow manages to DQ himself after a competition is closed?

Overall I'm afraid all this thread does is confirm the wider issues with just about everyone and the rules rather than just committees (and that's not being defensive about committees).

No one should be calling in from the course for a ruling - ridiculous. Guaranteed problem either way.

Mistakes happen - the rules also cover how to deal with mistakes all round!

However, most committees are well meaning, conciencious and put a huge amount of time and effort into their roles. They aren't all rules experts - they don't have the time left to become such! (They should however put processes into place that recognise this - and maybe that's the most important thing ).

 

[woody69]

So simple that even after looking things up your mate somehow manages to DQ himself after a competition is closed?

Overall I'm afraid all this thread does is confirm the wider issues with just about everyone and the rules rather than just committees (and that's not being defensive about committees).

No one should be calling in from the course for a ruling - ridiculous. Guaranteed problem either way.

Mistakes happen - the rules also cover how to deal with mistakes all round!

However, most committees are well meaning, conciencious and put a huge amount of time and effort into their roles. They aren't all rules experts - they don't have the time left to become such! (They should however put processes into place that recognise this - and maybe that's the most important thing ).

Comp wasn't closed when he DQd himself, but I hear what you are saying.

 

[cleanstrike]

A few weeks ago a friend of mine was playing in a comp. He hit one off the tee and went forward to find it. After a few minutes, whilst his FCs continued to look he said he would go back to the tee and hit a provisional, which he did. However no sooner had he done it his original ball was found and he played on with that. He ended up posting the lowest nett and winning. He was telling me about it and I pointed out to him that as soon as he went back and hit his "provisional" it was not a provisional at all and was the ball in play and by playing his original he was playing the wrong ball and as he didn't correct his mistake before making a stroke on the next teeing ground he is actually disqualified.

He decided to do the right thing and phoned up and DQ'd himself.

Fast forward to today and in his club champs he is playing with a member of the committee who does pretty much exactly the same thing as he did, except this was his 2nd he hit, struggled to find and went back to hit another whilst his FCs continued to look. My mate explains the rule to the committee member who calls the clubhouse asking for a ruling. He was told that as the original was found within 5 minutes then it is OK to continue with it even though he'd dropped another, so he played on and submitted his card. My mate said if that is the correct ruling he wants his DQ looked at, to which the guy said he would raise it with the committee.

I point out Decision 27-1/2 to my mate who agrees with me the committee guy is wrong, so raises it with them again in the clubhouse after the round, to which they just stick by their decision even though it's obviously wrong.

You wonder what you got to do when simple rules are misinterpreted.

My understanding of rule 27/2 is that a declared provisional only becomes the permanent ball in play when it comes to rest at a point nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. Thus, if the original ball is found before that happens then it remains the ball in play and no further strokes should be attempted at the provisional. You have not made it clear whether this was the case or not but if your mate's original ball was found (within the 5 minutes) before his provisional got past it, then you seem to have given him duff information.

 

[Slab]

My understanding of rule 27/2 is that a declared provisional only becomes the permanent ball in play when it comes to rest at a point nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. Thus, if the original ball is found before that happens then it remains the ball in play and no further strokes should be attempted at the provisional. You have not made it clear whether this was the case or not but if your mate's original ball was found (within the 5 minutes) before his provisional got past it, then you seem to have given him duff information.

But you have to bear in mind that his second ball didn't have the status of a provisional regardless of what the player might have declared or claimed it to be, so playing up to the point the original was likely to be was never a factor

By going forward (more than a short distance say on blind tee shots etc) and looking for his first ball for a few minutes (as we're told he did) the player no longer had the option of playing a provisional ball

His second ball automatically becomes the ball in play when a stroke was made at it

 

[Father_Ted]

My understanding of rule 27/2 is that a declared provisional only becomes the permanent ball in play when it comes to rest at a point nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. Thus, if the original ball is found before that happens then it remains the ball in play and no further strokes should be attempted at the provisional. You have not made it clear whether this was the case or not but if your mate's original ball was found (within the 5 minutes) before his provisional got past it, then you seem to have given him duff information.

that's just wrong

the rule is quite clear when the provo becomes the ball in play and when it must be abandoned

go read it again

 

[North Mimms]

My understanding of rule 27/2 is that a declared provisional only becomes the permanent ball in play when it comes to rest at a point nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. Thus, if the original ball is found before that happens then it remains the ball in play and no further strokes should be attempted at the provisional. You have not made it clear whether this was the case or not but if your mate's original ball was found (within the 5 minutes) before his provisional got past it, then you seem to have given him duff information.

That would be the case if he had played a provisional while still on the tee, before going to look for his first.
This is not the same scenario

 

[Foxholer]

My understanding of rule 27/2 is that a declared provisional only becomes the permanent ball in play when it comes to rest at a point nearer the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. Thus, if the original ball is found before that happens then it remains the ball in play and no further strokes should be attempted at the provisional. You have not made it clear whether this was the case or not but if your mate's original ball was found (within the 5 minutes) before his provisional got past it, then you seem to have given him duff information.

Notwithstanding the fact that the circumstances in the OP mean this is NOT a Provisional Ball, it's not the fact of coming to rest past the point where the original ball is likely to be, but when a subsequent stroke is made at a PB that is past that point!