Club Championships

[MashieNiblick]

Club Championships are almost universally and traditionally scratch because that is the way to find the best golfer at the club. I would think most golfers whatever their handicap would feel that their club's champion golfer should be the club's best player, and is therefore determined in some way on the basis of scratch golf, whether match play or stroke play.

Handicaps are artificial devices to allow competition between players of varying ability. Handicap competitions are not a way of determining who is the best golfer.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Never understood how club champion can be decided on matchplay as that's totally different beast to stroke play.

I agree it's a different beast, but surely the risk with Strokeplay is, is that that only identifies the best golfer on one day and maybe not the best player, Matchplay at least gives a chance to the better more consistent player.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I agree it's a different beast, but surely the risk with Strokeplay is, is that that only identifies the best golfer on one day and maybe not the best player, Matchplay at least gives a chance to the better more consistent player.

Granted but we run it over two days and the aggregate score wins. No different to most events and you need to hold it together over both rounds to win. I personally think there's more room to play some loose holes and still win in matchplay so not sure how it decides the best golfer. Not picking holes in those clubs running it that way, just my view.

 

[patricks148]

Granted but we run it over two days and the aggregate score wins. No different to most events and you need to hold it together over both rounds to win. I personally think there's more room to play some loose holes and still win in matchplay so not sure how it decides the best golfer. Not picking holes in those clubs running it that way, just my view.

we have two round on consecutive weekends stroke play then 3 round of matchplay... which for me means the best player across almost 2 weeks golf, you might get lucky in one round but not 5

 

[MashieNiblick]

Never understood how club champion can be decided on matchplay as that's totally different beast to stroke play.

Different beast but no less a way of determining a Champion golfer. British and US Amateur Champions are still determined ultimately by match play.

 

[Slab]

So your club champion isn't the one who has the best score on the day ?

To be inclusive its a comp based on the handicap system so no it doesn't find the best player in terms of ability. (well it does as I mentioned there's a gross comp run alongside it so that person is the scratch club champion) Like others have already mentioned the scratch field would be so small it would barely count as a competition and certainly not representative of the club as a whole

When (as mentioned) clubs have to run a nett version on the same day that the annual Club Championship is underway it shows a problem of some sort

Weird post, perhaps the one person who voted for nett can explain why a high handicap golfer who scores 100-28= 72 should be called the club champion against the member who scores 69+4= 73.

That was me and I have to work with the poll naming convention but for the avoidance of doubt I didn't 'vote' for nett, it just is nett

Perhaps being outside the UK explains a different approach and no surprise that there's already a sizeable following for the club champion to be the ‘best player’ (and for the purposes of discussion) is that person really your club champion or are they the scratch club champion?

I do think it’s important for clubs to have comps that don’t use the handicap system to find the best player but let’s not get carried away that it must be the singular definition of a club champion and the only one worth recognising. After all for most clubs it’s just lowest score over 1 or 2 rounds on one particular weekend (& your ‘best player’ might actually be sunning themselves on the Algarve!)

Danny Willett is Masters Champion and the best player that weekend but is he the 'best player' in the 'pros club'?

Shouldn't the 'best player' be defined as the one who wins your clubs Order of Merit competition (assuming its run by the club, & if not why not)

 

[Deleted member 15344]

To be inclusive its a comp based on the handicap system so no it doesn't find the best player in terms of ability. (well it does as I mentioned there's a gross comp run alongside it so that person is the scratch club champion) Like others have already mentioned the scratch field would be so small it would barely count as a competition and certainly not representative of the club as a whole

When (as mentioned) clubs have to run a nett version on the same day that the annual Club Championship is underway it shows a problem of some sort



That was me and I have to work with the poll naming convention but for the avoidance of doubt I didn't 'vote' for nett, it just is nett

Perhaps being outside the UK explains a different approach and no surprise that there's already a sizeable following for the club champion to be the ‘best player’ (and for the purposes of discussion) is that person really your club champion or are they the scratch club champion?

I do think it’s important for clubs to have comps that don’t use the handicap system to find the best player but let’s not get carried away that it must be the singular definition of a club champion and the only one worth recognising. After all for most clubs it’s just lowest score over 1 or 2 rounds on one particular weekend (& your ‘best player’ might actually be sunning themselves on the Algarve!)

Danny Willett is Masters Champion and the best player that weekend but is he the 'best player' in the 'pros club'?

Shouldn't the 'best player' be defined as the one who wins your clubs Order of Merit competition (assuming its run by the club, & if not why not)

Anything with a HC including means it's just another medal

Order of Merits are mainly done by the results of HC comps through the year

Why does t matter if it's a small field ?

 

[mcbroon]

ours is 2 rounds of stroke play with the lowest gross in one draw and handicap the other. then 3 round of matchplay. gross being off the blue.

Handicap off the white.

scratch winner is the only one that goes on the board in the club house entrance(the only board). We do have a handicap champ but no board.

TBH the best player should be the club champion

This, although we don't have blues. All off the whites.

Boards for Club Champion in Gents, Ladies and Junior categories, and no other boards.

 

[Slab]

Anything with a HC including means it's just another medal

Surely that's down to the mindset of the individual, if you don't care for it any more than any other comp then no one can force you

Isn't The Open Championship run as the exact same format as (almost) every other Tour comp. Do you think the players treat it as just another 'medal'?

 

[DCB]

36 holes stroke play qualifier, top 16 gross scores go into a scratch knockout comp to crown the Club Champion. Top 8 gross scores from cat 3 and above go into a 'B' championship and likewise the top 8 seniors make up a 'seniors' championship knockout. Similar scheme for the Ladies. All the knockout rounds are off scratch and played over the same week culminating in a finals day on the Sunday. Good fun. Only Boards are for Ladies and Gents champions.

The 36 hole qualifier is also a normal medal with scratch and nett prizes so everyone turns out as usual.

Is very similar to the way we run our Championship. Finals Day is a great day out at the club.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Surely that's down to the mindset of the individual, if you don't care for it any more than any other comp then no one can force you

Isn't The Open Championship run as the exact same format as (almost) every other Tour comp. Do you think the players treat it as just another 'medal'?

Open Champs has no HC involved so it's irrelevant

 

[Slab]

36 holes stroke play qualifier, top 16 gross scores go into a scratch knockout comp to crown the Club Champion. Top 8 gross scores from cat 3 and above go into a 'B' championship and likewise the top 8 seniors make up a 'seniors' championship knockout. Similar scheme for the Ladies. All the knockout rounds are off scratch and played over the same week culminating in a finals day on the Sunday. Good fun. Only Boards are for Ladies and Gents champions.

The 36 hole qualifier is also a normal medal with scratch and nett prizes so everyone turns out as usual.

Yours and Patrick's sound far more the kind of formats that can better identify the individuals worthy of the tag 'best player'

 

[Big_G]

We have both a gross and a net club championship, both earning a place on the honours board

However only the gross winner is regarded as the club champion

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Club Champion is gross, but a net prize is run alongside the gross comp'

 

[Slab]

Open Champs has no HC involved so it's irrelevant

Neither does any other tour comp

However you said "Anything with a HC including means it's just another medal" I've (clearly) mistaken this to mean that using the same scoring format would render club champs no different to any medal week (if not what is your point)

The Open has the same scoring format as other bog standard tour comps

 

[fenwayrich]

Club Championships should be to determine who is the best golfer at the club for that year.

Ours is over 36 holes (on the same day), open to handicaps 12 and under, with a separate net competition for those, like me, with virtually no chance of winning the gross. A fiver to enter. We had about 50 play last year. Good fun.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I do think it’s important for clubs to have comps that don’t use the handicap system to find the best player but let’s not get carried away that it must be the singular definition of a club champion and the only one worth recognising. After all for most clubs it’s just lowest score over 1 or 2 rounds on one particular weekend (& your ‘best player’ might actually be sunning themselves on the Algarve!)

Danny Willett is Masters Champion and the best player that weekend but is he the 'best player' in the 'pros club'?

Shouldn't the 'best player' be defined as the one who wins your clubs Order of Merit competition (assuming its run by the club, & if not why not)

This is an interesting point as it goes to the heart of a lot of sports. Do you identify the "best" player/team on the basis of one event or as a result of performance over a longer time?

The Open Champion is proclaimed "the Champion Golfer for the Year" on the basis of 72 holes played over 4 days. He is "The Open Champion", but he may not be the World No 1 based on results over the year. Does that matter? Does it devalue the Open as a Golf Championship? There have been a few surprise ones but they took less strokes over the course of the event. Isn't that what golf is essentially all about? What better way to find the best golfer than a golf competition!? I guess it's a matter of opinion.

The issue with "Order of Merit" type approaches is how you award points and how to factor in that not everyone will play in all the events. The "best" golfer might still miss out by missing a couple of events due to being on holiday. Our OOM (h/cap based) uses a points a system and takes the best 5 results from 7 counting events, but a different system could give different results based on the same results so it always feels a bit artificial as a method of determining a Champion.

 

[Region3]

Ours is 36 holes over 2 days.

Top 30 gross & nett (will be some overlap) from Saturday play again on the Sunday.

Lowest gross is club champion, lowest nett wins the "Beedles Bowl".

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Neither does any other tour comp

However you said "Anything with a HC including means it's just another medal" I've (clearly) mistaken this to mean that using the same scoring format would render club champs no different to any medal week (if not what is your point)

The Open has the same scoring format as other bog standard tour comps

Ok - the reasons why the Open or indeed any major is different from your average comp

It's played on a course totally different to any other comp

It's played in conditions not seen at any other comp

It has the strongest field seen throughout the year

It has the biggest crowds seen at any event

It is clearly a step above any other comp - it is the true test of golf

In this country all the club champs play in a comp together in your situation a 28 HC could be playing a scratch comp against some of the best club golfers in the country - do you think that's right ?

 

[Region3]

The entry is 40 quid for the two days so why would the 'no hoppers' off 10 and above enter. Seems little point.

Seems very expensive, is that in line with your other comps run through the year?

On the other side of the coin, I have very little chance of winning a stableford but I still pay my entry and play. It's a game of golf after all, plus a round towards handicap.