Cheating/rule breaking

[duncan mackie]

i played against a colleague in a match and he took a drop from a rabit burrow. he dropped on the wrong side which gave him a clear shot to the green. i had to inform him of the correct npr procedure.

10 minutes later he marked his ball on the green. however, it wasn't the green it was the fringe that had been very closely mown. i said nothing. which i know is wrong but I'd don't want to be known as that jobs worth knob that people don't like to play with

Not wrong at all in match play. You know he has committed a breach, he hasn't realised it. You are permitted to overlook it.
If realises it he can't overlook it!

 

[3565]

Not at all I'll happily accept if I caused anyone confusion. no need for anyone to offer me a bailout.

😂👍🏻

 

[sawtooth]

The one thing I cannot agree with is "they're only cheating themselves". No they are not, they are cheating everyone else.

Yes there is a difference between inadvertent rule breaking and cheating and most golfers can tell the difference on the spot.

I caught our former captain cheating in last year's Captain's Day when he found his ball after at least 12 minutes looking whilst the rest of the group had finished out on the green. He then bullied a junior into signing the card with his score on that hole. We dealt with him.

Yeah I hope that you threw that Junior out of the club😆

 

[road2ruin]

Not so much cheating however there was an incident at our club a few months back were a 4 ball were pottering out, everything was amicable by all accounts and chatting between greens and tees. During one particular chat the first player tee'd up, hit it straight down the middle only to get pulled up by one of his PP for going off the yellows and not the whites. The guy wasn't concentrating and there isn't a huge difference at ours between yellow and white so it's not that hard to do. It all kicked off because whilst the guy who played fully admitted to being in the wrong and it being his mistake the PP who pulled him up had realised his mistake and wanted to see if he'd realise before playing the shot. He didn't.

Obviously it is ultimately the players fault as he should have played off the correct tee's what sort of a person are you if you watch someone unintentionally doing something like that and you don't have a quick word to stop them before it's too late.

 

[Capella]

Not so much cheating however there was an incident at our club a few months back were a 4 ball were pottering out, everything was amicable by all accounts and chatting between greens and tees. During one particular chat the first player tee'd up, hit it straight down the middle only to get pulled up by one of his PP for going off the yellows and not the whites. The guy wasn't concentrating and there isn't a huge difference at ours between yellow and white so it's not that hard to do. It all kicked off because whilst the guy who played fully admitted to being in the wrong and it being his mistake the PP who pulled him up had realised his mistake and wanted to see if he'd realise before playing the shot. He didn't.

Obviously it is ultimately the players fault as he should have played off the correct tee's what sort of a person are you if you watch someone unintentionally doing something like that and you don't have a quick word to stop them before it's too late.

I speak out, usually. And had others doing the same for me, for example when I teed up too far forward. But I had exactly that discussion with my boss a while ago, and he said he would of course wait for the other palyer to tee off and then call a penalty on him. Even though that is within the rules, it strikes me as bad etiquette and really goiing against the spirit of the game.

 

[IanG]

Teeing up off the wrong box or a few inches too far forward is a common absent minded occurrence and I suspect we've all done it. I fully expect anyone noticing it before I'd hit to stop me and point it out. Even in match play I'd point it out to my opponent before he hit.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Yeah I hope that you threw that Junior out of the club

Heh heh heh. As for the captain, to quote a cracking radio show .... "We fed him to the regimental lethal virus. Took him the rest of his life to die."

 

[UlyssesSky]

In this case I think, I'd tell him afterwards that I let him get away with this, but actually there was a ruling for this and that he normally would have received a one shot penalty for this and would have to replace the ball, so that he knows for the future should it ever happen to him again.

If you did this to me, I would hate you...

I like to play by the rules and don't want any unfair advantages. So if you told me I breached a rule, I would correct it. But in most cases you can only correct mistakes until you teed off on the next hole (or left the last green). After that point the penalty becomes more severe.

For the poor guy in the example who just thought he holed out for eagle, this would mean he'd have a blob instead since he didn't finish the hole... If he had know about his rules breach in time and decided to correct it, he'd still get a birdie (including the penalty stroke).


Something similar happened to me in one of my first competitions. A guy from my group approached me in the parking lot when I was about to go home and told me "hey, just wanted to let you know that you technically incurred a penalty stroke on hole X, just wanted to let you know so you can avoid it in the future..."

This was before the rules update that says you only get two additional penatly strokes if you signed an incorrect scorecard because of a penalty you didn't know you incurred, so going back to correct the mistake at that point in time would have meant a DQ for me.


As you said yourself, golf is a self-refereed sport, so it's really not up to you to let anyone get away with anything, but if you take that liberty to decide wether or not to call someone on a rules breach, you should adhere to a phrase well known from wedding rituals:

"Speak now or forever hold your peace"

 

[medwayjon]

Had a few incidents of this and a couple stand out

Had one guy in a society, never, ever lost a ball, ever. Didn't matter how wide it went, or no matter how rough/dense the ground it went into was, he never lost a ball.

I had him in my group one day as it happened, and was determined to catch him, anyway, he fired a ball well left and into some rubbish, so we went to look for it, whilst there I found his ball and stood by it, and shortly after he proclaimed that he had found his ball and as continued.

After the game I returnd him his ball, told him I knew exactly what he was up to, and that he was no longer welcome.

The second incident was a guy who couldn't resist doing a bit of on-course gardening, always improving his lie, pressing down rough, fluffing his ball up off a deepish lie, or re-arranging sand in the bunkers.

Nobody wanted to play with him in the end.

 

[PJ87]

Teeing up off the wrong box or a few inches too far forward is a common absent minded occurrence and I suspect we've all done it. I fully expect anyone noticing it before I'd hit to stop me and point it out. Even in match play I'd point it out to my opponent before he hit.

Damn right and anyone who said afterwards I would quite firmly ask why they didn't think a great idea to say before I took the shot?

Maybe for some people it's the only way they think they can beat others by calling foul on them to gain advantage

 

[Capella]

If you did this to me, I would hate you...

I like to play by the rules and don't want any unfair advantages. So if you told me I breached a rule, I would correct it. But in most cases you can only correct mistakes until you teed off on the next hole (or left the last green). After that point the penalty becomes more severe.

For the poor guy in the example who just thought he holed out for eagle, this would mean he'd have a blob instead since he didn't finish the hole... If he had know about his rules breach in time and decided to correct it, he'd still get a birdie (including the penalty stroke).


Something similar happened to me in one of my first competitions. A guy from my group approached me in the parking lot when I was about to go home and told me "hey, just wanted to let you know that you technically incurred a penalty stroke on hole X, just wanted to let you know so you can avoid it in the future..."

This was before the rules update that says you only get two additional penatly strokes if you signed an incorrect scorecard because of a penalty you didn't know you incurred, so going back to correct the mistake at that point in time would have meant a DQ for me.


As you said yourself, golf is a self-refereed sport, so it's really not up to you to let anyone get away with anything, but if you take that liberty to decide wether or not to call someone on a rules breach, you should adhere to a phrase well known from wedding rituals:

"Speak now or forever hold your peace"

I feel differntly about this. I accept the fact that I am still learning the game. So I would definitely want to know if I did something wrong, but would also, especially in a social round, happily accept when a more knowledgable/experienced player grants me lenience on a point like this for an unknowing first time offence. Of course I would prefer to be informed before the blunder, so that I can prevent it (but in this case the op said that it happened before he could say anything).

 

[duncan mackie]

Of course I would prefer to be informed before the blunder, so that I can prevent it (but in this case the op said that it happened before he could say anything).

I believe that US is highlighting that there are 2 blunders here - and, as you, he would prefer that something was said before either, but given the situation, he would definitely want to hear about it before the second (avoidable) one!

I completely agree with him.

 

[UlyssesSky]

I feel differntly about this. I accept the fact that I am still learning the game. So I would definitely want to know if I did something wrong, but would also, especially in a social round, happily accept when a more knowledgable/experienced player grants me lenience on a point like this for an unknowing first time offence. Of course I would prefer to be informed before the blunder, so that I can prevent it (but in this case the op said that it happened before he could say anything).

A social round is a different story... You can let me get away with anything you like in a social round, as long as you tell me what I did wrong so I can learn from it.

But for any official competition, telling a player about a rules breach at a point where he can't correct it means putting him between a rock and a hard place, since he can only chose between handing in a scorecard he knows is incorrect (effectively turning what started as an honest mistake into blatant cheating...) or correct the scorecard and accept a penalty that is usually far more severe than the penalty for the original rules breach.

 

[ScienceBoy]

Certainly rule breaking is rife..

It's important to remember that rule breaking itself is totally fine and happens in all sports all the time by every competitor.

As long as the correct penalty is applied and/or correction is made then all is fine.

Rule breaking has been and always be a key part of sports. Only a sport with no rules will every be free of rule breaking.

Cheating however is different, hugely differently. It is when the ruling/punishment/penalty is not applied. Some may add to benefit the person intentionally or otherwise.

I feel it's really important to separate the two.

 

[jim8flog]

Does anyone know if there is a good summary of the most common rules of golf? My daughter has just started playing competitions, something that covered the most common issues would be good for her.

As already said _ A quick guide to the rules of golf. It can be downloaded from the R&A website or get a rule book and cut out pages 18-26.

 

[jim8flog]

There is one player I play with regularly who always get told by me when he breaks a rule simply because loads of players know about his cheating but are too afraid to say anything to him. It is noticeable that he will not play in any comps with me anymore. It is pretty basic stuff he does like bang his club down behind the ball repeatedly when he is in the rough.

Last winter during lift clean and place he started picking up stuff and teeing his ball up on it.

We had one guy get kicked out of our swindle for frequently using a leather wedge and I know of two players kicked out of the club for cheating in comps.

When it comes to breaking the rules there are very players that really know the rules in depth that it is all too common to see. I now try never to watch other players because a lot of them were clearly getting fed up with me telling them they were about too or had just broken a rule. It is hard enough at times to concentrate on your own game without having to concentrate on all the others in the group.

 

[PJ87]

There is one player I play with regularly who always get told by me when he breaks a rule simply because loads of players know about his cheating but are too afraid to say anything to him. It is noticeable that he will not play in any comps with me anymore. It is pretty basic stuff he does like bang his club down behind the ball repeatedly when he is in the rough.

Last winter during lift clean and place he started picking up stuff and teeing his ball up on it.

We had one guy get kicked out of our swindle for frequently using a leather wedge and I know of two players kicked out of the club for cheating in comps.

When it comes to breaking the rules there are very players that really know the rules in depth that it is all too common to see. I now try never to watch other players because a lot of them were clearly getting fed up with me telling them they were about too or had just broken a rule. It is hard enough at times to concentrate on your own game without having to concentrate on all the others in the group.

Is that teeing up on things cheating? I don't do it but people use fairway matts in the winter to protect the course so isn't that the same?

 

[Franco]

In my nearly four years of golf, I have found groups of players who tolerate cheating and groups that don't. By cheating I mean re-positioning the ball in the rough after lifting without marking, in order to identify it and nudging the ball out of a divot on the fairway. It is not surprising that cheating is frequent in groups where it goes unchallenged and very rare in groups that will call it.

Last month I played in a three ball where I challenged a player for lifting and re-placing his ball in the rough. His response was abusive and the third player said "He only moved it a few inches". If that is colluding to break a rule then I could look to have them disqualified. I would receive little support and I would no doubt be leaving the club under a cloud soon after.

These are all games where there are small cash prizes so cheating is for gain.

 

[Tarkus1212]

In my nearly four years of golf, I have found groups of players who tolerate cheating and groups that don't. By cheating I mean re-positioning the ball in the rough after lifting without marking, in order to identify it and nudging the ball out of a divot on the fairway. It is not surprising that cheating is frequent in groups where it goes unchallenged and very rare in groups that will call it.

Last month I played in a three ball where I challenged a player for lifting and re-placing his ball in the rough. His response was abusive and the third player said "He only moved it a few inches". If that is colluding to break a rule then I could look to have them disqualified. I would receive little support and I would no doubt be leaving the club under a cloud soon after.

These are all games where there are small cash prizes so cheating is for gain.

The value of the prize is irrelevant, if this was in a club comp then you have a duty to the rest of the field to report both of them. I think you'd be surprised how much support you'd get, put it this way, I'd rather play with you than either of your companions.

 

[Smiffy]

On a week-end away with "the lads" I witnessed one of our fourball blatantly cheat. It was so obvious what he had done, but the other two guys hadn't witnessed it. When I told one of them what I had seen, I was told not to say anything for fear of creating a scene, and ruining the atmosphere for the whole week-end. I was absolutely livid, and regret to this day not pulling him up over it.
This guy had been suspected for ages, always getting his scores wrong (to his advantage every time) and he'd won a lot of money from his mates over the years. To put it bluntly he was stealing.
I've never played with him since.