Sats
Challenge Tour Pro
Small claims/County court is civil = outcomes based upon the balance of probability. Magistrates court/Crown criminal - beyond all reasonable doubt. Massive difference regarding the burden of proof.
Cheating on the course
- Thread starter Britishshooting
- Start date
Small claims/County court is civil = outcomes based upon the balance of probability. Magistrates court/Crown criminal - beyond all reasonable doubt. Massive difference regarding the burden of proof.
User20204
Well-known member
6 pages of which I'm not going to go thru however, this is a very similar incident that happened at my club recently that I started a topic about. I've since heard there was two witnesses to said incident but have heard no more on it. It's my opinion, if two witnesses saw it, then, in our clubs issue, it should be dealt with, it may have been and all has gone quiet.
In regards this particular incident, if only one witness, then the accused can plead ignorance and deny it and then what ?
In regards this particular incident, if only one witness, then the accused can plead ignorance and deny it and then what ?
williamalex1
Money List Winner
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Me too , gonna be a good discussion between 2 cops discussing rights and wrongs
😂😂 right ave enough to get me through the night.
Attachments
williamalex1
Money List Winner
The mistake the chairman [and the additional email ] made , was giving too much detailed info of the times and location of the alleged offence, virtually outing the accused.
A simple email to all stating " It been brought to our attention that a well known member has been spotted cheating {using a left handed leather wedge } we know who you are, and we're watching you ".
This is your final warning williamalex1
A simple email to all stating " It been brought to our attention that a well known member has been spotted cheating {using a left handed leather wedge } we know who you are, and we're watching you ".
This is your final warning williamalex1
GasMan
Assistant Pro
Anyone who is unprofessional enough to circulate an email like this to the membership is a liability IMHO. It smacks of the old school clique and with the right solicitors involved could end the financial viability of a club.
There’s a few things that would potentially make this situation much worse if the alleged cheat were to protest their innocence.
What if the alleged cheat has their membership paid via a finance agreement? Should their presumed guilt make their use of that product untenable or they be denied access to the product, the FCA could be VERY interested. I’m sure with the precarious position a lot of golf clubs find themselves in these days, this can of worms doesn’t need opening!
From a 3rd party perspective, the potential impact via defamation, associated financial impact and potential to affect future employment/business lost is monstrous.
What if the accuser(s) can be implied to have motive? Emphasis on the word implied as short of video proof of the aforementioned cheating, even witness testimony can only be an implication and not proof.
What if the accused is daring to voice concerns against the established running of the club/committees/other issues and needs to be discredited? The easiest way to silence a dissenting voice is to destroy their credibility. When established people are threatened, this sort of ruse is all to easy to play out.
I despair that any committee can’t see that issues like this must be dealt with anonymity and behind closed doors.
There’s a few things that would potentially make this situation much worse if the alleged cheat were to protest their innocence.
What if the alleged cheat has their membership paid via a finance agreement? Should their presumed guilt make their use of that product untenable or they be denied access to the product, the FCA could be VERY interested. I’m sure with the precarious position a lot of golf clubs find themselves in these days, this can of worms doesn’t need opening!
From a 3rd party perspective, the potential impact via defamation, associated financial impact and potential to affect future employment/business lost is monstrous.
What if the accuser(s) can be implied to have motive? Emphasis on the word implied as short of video proof of the aforementioned cheating, even witness testimony can only be an implication and not proof.
What if the accused is daring to voice concerns against the established running of the club/committees/other issues and needs to be discredited? The easiest way to silence a dissenting voice is to destroy their credibility. When established people are threatened, this sort of ruse is all to easy to play out.
I despair that any committee can’t see that issues like this must be dealt with anonymity and behind closed doors.
User20204
Well-known member
Your post is excellent though the quote above I would say, if you have paid your membership via a finance agreement, then that's not the clubs issue I'd have thought, your contract is with the finance company not the club, much like a personal loan but not like hp loan on a car.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Clearly the chairman jumped the gun and shot himself and the club. The 'cheating' is merely a claim by one person. The public pursuit of the possible cheater was a really silly move. It almost ensures that the person must come back hard as it is the only choice left to him/her and their playing partners to clear their names.
The golfer has been defamed in the absence of proof and it could rightly cost these individuals (chairman and the informant) a bunch of cash for jumping in without very firm evidence.
The golfer has been defamed in the absence of proof and it could rightly cost these individuals (chairman and the informant) a bunch of cash for jumping in without very firm evidence.
sunshine
Well-known member
In all likelihood I wouldn't know I was playing with a cheat. I don't get involved in the cliques and politics at my club, and I suspect the same goes for the majority of members. Maybe he just quietly moves to another club if it's a big deal. Losing family and friends? Is leather wedge grounds for divorce?
Captainron
Big Hitting, South African Sweary Person
In all likelihood you would know. That sort of information would travel around golfing circles fairly quickly. And yes there have been times when this sort of thing has lead to people losing friends (not sure about divorce but it is possible)
Clubs also don’t want to have known cheats playing at them as this invariably rubs off on the club. So any new club would probably refuse that persons membership application.
Matches and competitions the person has played in the past are all thrown into doubt because everyone would think that cheating may have occurred then and wasn’t picked up.
Being caught cheating would have unbelievable consequences for the perpetrator.
chrisd
Major Champion
I agree wholeheartedly that the club has acted irresponsibly in putting out the emails that they have. The problem being that club officials dont need to be solicitors or the like and can easily think they're doing the right thing before finding out that they've dropped their club well and truly in the doo doo. Clubs really do need to to look at their top officials and maybe draw up some sort of code to deal with these matters so that Major General Blithering Eejit doesn't bankrupt the club with one stupid email
There's off the shelf HR/business packages that can be bought very cheaply which cover disciplinary processes. I know of 2 clubs that went down this route. The package also includes xx amount of free advice. There's no excuse for stupidity by the club, well intentioned amateurs or not.
sunshine
Well-known member
Interesting.
In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).
Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
If my mate was caught cheating I would not be happy .Interesting.
In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).
Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while
All the fivers I have lost to him plus a couple of drinks.
I would be having more than a word I think.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
That's a funny one to think about actually. If it was one of my friends that I knew from outside of golf, then like you I would probably berate them but it wouldn't affect our friendship at all. If it was someone I'd actually met through golf though I probably would shy away from them a bit. Perhaps because I would know slightly less about them as a person and golf makes up a larger section of their character in my mind.Interesting.
In these times of austerity, with clubs struggling to get by, I'm sure many clubs would accept a new member no questions asked. It depends on the club of course.
And surely the previous club would not provide a negative reference for fear of being sued. (Although in this instance it seems the club doesn't care about this sort of stuff).
Losing friends? If one of my friends was caught cheating it wouldn't change my friendship with him, I'd give them some stick but that's about it. However I do acknowledge that it would have a significant impact on acquaintances.
Losing family? My family couldn't care less what I do on the golf course. In fact my wife would be really happy if I was kicked out of a club and couldn't play for a while
Wolf
Well-known member
It is awkward when you know somebody well that has cheated. I mentioned few month back on a similar thread I witnessed blatant leather wedge cheating, I was a mere junior about 21years ago, playing in a men's comp when I witnessed the incident & the person then claimed a lower score than they had on their card I was marking. It was also witnessed independently by another in our group an one on an adjacent hole. Needless to say I refused sign the card and they were reported by the other 2 members and I was hauled in to give witness statement. They denied it but all 3 witness stories corroborated each other and that person was advised they're no longer welcome at the club and had to leave. All this time later that person barely speaks to me because of the incident, that person will also be at my wedding in 4 weeks time even though we barely exchange words., because they couldn't believe I had the audacity to speak out against them. The reason behind it that person in question happens to be my older brother! He is still a phenomenal golfer playing off 1 now I believe but we've never played together since as his talent is overshadowed by his character. You can only imagine how hard it was for my dad in that situation, it caused so much friction as he took my side because it had been witnessed & reported by others and he has always believed in doing the right thing regardless.
The other thing I do find interesting in life is we likely all know someone that has cheated in a relationship but we forgive & forget but if that person cheats on the golf course that's it we're done with them forever 😂
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
That’s a good point ,I have known people cheat on wives and girlfriends and thought it’s none of my business.
But cheating at golf?
It sounds trivial really , but your there to protect the field so you must speak out.
Italian outcast
Hacker
So what is worse?
Your wife cheating on you
Your wife taking a secret mulligan and taking a fiver from you
Perhaps we need a poll
Your wife cheating on you
Your wife taking a secret mulligan and taking a fiver from you
Perhaps we need a poll
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Mines not interested in either???So what is worse?
Your wife cheating on you
Your wife taking a secret mulligan and taking a fiver from you
Perhaps we need a poll
GasMan
Assistant Pro
It all depends on how it is sold. With a car on HP you could be deprived if the use of the car via a legal process E.g. a ban for drink driving. If the club introduces a customer for finance and then does something to deprive the customer of the product without a solid legal footing ....... that’s a whole different ball game.
Bottom line is that being ignorant of the consequences of your actions doesn’t exonerate you or your business/entity from citation. This email was probably sent out by a retired teacher with a god complex who has never existed outside of a canned environment such as the education system.
