Cheating on the course

[bladeplayer]

Im looking forward to agm in new club this year . I plan to mention the members lack of awarness or understanding of proper procedures under the rules of golf or what to do when a possible breach occurs ..😆

 

[Britishshooting]

So just to update you all, we recieved this E-Mail yesterday.

I think the Chairman that tackled this incident in completely the wrong manor should 'learn from this'.


Dear Members

A meeting took place on Thursday 15th August to further discuss the cheating allegations made by a member on 23rd June 2019. The meeting was chaired by George W and in attendance were Richard C, Darrell S and Graham N along with the member who reported the incident and the member accused of cheating.


Both parties gave their version of events and said their piece. After some questions to both parties from the committee and further discussion, the accused repeatedly denied the allegations and the meeting was promptly closed.

As a committee we cannot take further action in this case as we only have one person's word against another person's, which does not constitute enough evidence for us to take any action other than to close the matter.

However, as members we can learn from this incident as follows:

• Be vigilant at all times on the golf course and be aware of what other players are doing.
• Be confident to approach people if you have a concern about what you have witnessed them doing, even if you are not 100% sure it is wrong, there may be a reasonable explanation such as they are not sure on a ruling.
• Be aware that we take cheating and allegations of cheating very seriously and will investigate all incidents that are reported to the committee.

 

[Britishshooting]

Also just to add, the 'accused cheats' name is now public knowledge but plays every Saturday and Sunday, the person who reported the incident has been true to his word and not played in a single competition since the allegations were raised.

 

[patricks148]

Also just to add, the 'accused cheats' name is now public knowledge but plays every Saturday and Sunday, the person who reported the incident has been true to his word and not played in a single competition since the allegations were raised.

isn't that just hurting the guy that reported him,??

i'm sure now everyone would watch him like a hawk and if they are a serial cheater it won't be long before they are caught again

 

[Tashyboy]

For me it is probably the correct outcome giving it was word v word. Said leather wedge has his card marked. Said person who saw leather wedge has stuck to his word and not played in a comp that leather wedge is playing in. Time to close the door and move on. 👍

 

[chrisd]

I'd agree that the final outcome was pretty much right but a better handling of the situation from the start would have been my expectation if it had happened at my place

 

[inc0gnito]

Seems like he is hurting himself unnecessarily by not playing in competitions

 

[Coffey]

Would be interesting to see if the accused scores have changed recently if people are not watching him. Have his scores gone up now he is being monitored?

 

[Britishshooting]

Would be interesting to see if the accused scores have changed recently if people are not watching him. Have his scores gone up now he is being monitored?

He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.

 

[Coffey]

He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.

Well that is very suspicious.

I have heard so many similar stories to this.

One guy looking to get his PGA. Playing off 5 magically goes away with his friend and shoots 5 under par to bring him to a 4 handicap.

Another guy who has one of the best handicaps in Ireland shot a 65 once yet not one person saw him on the course. Was asked to verify who the marker was (as it was unreadable) and could not remember as 'he shoots 65's all the time'.

And then the most recent one, involves a friend (friend 1) of mine who was seen leaving the first tee box alone. Another friend (friend 2) of mine spots him on the 12th and he spins a story that he was left by his PP. He did not mention to friend 2 that he was playing in a comp for the remaining holes. On the 12th hole he was playing 2 balls. Friend 2 did not sign the card yet it was submitted and he won the comp. You can clearly see on the scorecard where friend 2 joined up. Was all par's to hole 12 and then all bogies and one birdie after that. Friend 2 did not raise at the time as he did not know friend 1 was in the comp and did not want the stigma etc. Nothing has been said since as he hasn't played with us and it is not too late to raise.

Happens far more than you want to believe but as seen at your club, most of the time it is one word against another and impossible to prove.

 

[Grant85]

He plays in a regular 4ball, 2 are brothers, 1 is accused cheat other is a friend of the 3, there have always been rumours/obvious suspicions of them cheating.

They were ALWAYS last group out and on the 15th (close proximity to pro-shop) one of the party would always return to the pro shop, buy a bottle of water and quickly check the scores returned, take that as you will.

There were suspicions as each of the 4 man group won board comps out of 6 events, this span ran from mid last year until May when they enforced random draw.

Since random draw was enforced none of the mentioned have won anything when placed randomly, but seem to do extraordinarily well when playing together. It's almost too obvious, I know several of them by name but wouldn't know them by face to keep an eye on them etc.

Very easy for golf to be manipulated like that.

Solution is for all big Saturday competitions to be balloted entry so you can't manipulate who is marking your card. I'm happy to be in a club that has balloted entries but have been in a previous club that didn't and certainly this kind of behaviour was always rumoured with people playing with the same guys every week (and often at the same time). Given the culture that had built up with people playing with their mates, there was obviously some resistance when they started introducing balloted competitions.

 

[ArnoldArmChewer]

We had an incident last week playing in a seniors open competition, the event was teams of 3 with best 2 scores counting + an individual comp. The 3 of us were standing on a par 3 tee waiting for the green to clear. directly behind us we saw a ball land, it transpires it was from the tee 3 holes ahead of us, the player arrived (by buggy) ahead of his PP's picked up his ball and threw it from the rough onto the fairway, he then proceeded to improve his lie on the fairway and play a very respectable shot onto the green. We were certain that he didn't realise anyone was watching, so we called over to him to remind him he was in a comp and rules were there to be complied with, he pretended not to hear us and drove off smartishly.

Now it could be he was out of the hole (it was stableford), so at the time we let it go. We decided if he or his PP's were called up for a prize we would question it, fortunately he/they were not so we did no more. I am pretty sure he was cheating, so what do you do ?

 

[Grant85]

We had an incident last week playing in a seniors open competition, the event was teams of 3 with best 2 scores counting + an individual comp. The 3 of us were standing on a par 3 tee waiting for the green to clear. directly behind us we saw a ball land, it transpires it was from the tee 3 holes ahead of us, the player arrived (by buggy) ahead of his PP's picked up his ball and threw it from the rough onto the fairway, he then proceeded to improve his lie on the fairway and play a very respectable shot onto the green. We were certain that he didn't realise anyone was watching, so we called over to him to remind him he was in a comp and rules were there to be complied with, he pretended not to hear us and drove off smartishly.

Now it could be he was out of the hole (it was stableford), so at the time we let it go. We decided if he or his PP's were called up for a prize we would question it, fortunately he/they were not so we did no more. I am pretty sure he was cheating, so what do you do ?

I agree, it's not a nice position to be in if you witness something like that. Potentially will escalate and create ill feeling at a golf club.

Only saving grace in your situation was there was multiple witnesses, so you might feel a bit more comfortable approaching someone or reporting something. But if I was sole witness and didn't say anything at the time, for whatever reason, I doubt I would raise it. As the OP has said, it's going to create a lot of hassle and not much of an end result.

 

[clubchamp98]

I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As it’s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .

 

[User20204]

If you are going to report buster you need corroboration and be prepared to take it all the way, otherwise, say nothing.

 

[bladeplayer]

I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As it’s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .

This ⬆⬆⬆ unless u have at least 1 more to back u up ur wasting ur time .. i told one of committee i cant wait til AGM to bring up lack of knowledge of rules . Email out this week . At end of email was people should familiarise themselves with the RoG . and a link to a rules page 😕😕

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I would say this outcome will put people off reporting cheating .
Unless more than one witness is present .
As it’s your word they are going to dismiss without further proof.
Weather they belive you or not .

Its an inevitable outcome sadly. No-one will bother if they are sole witness and it goes to their word against another and all it will do is cause friction and animosity in the clubhouse

 

[Jacko_G]

So this person has now been named and "shamed" without proper evidence.

How does the club stand legally now? Genuine question.

 

[howbow88]

Its an inevitable outcome sadly. No-one will bother if they are sole witness and it goes to their word against another and all it will do is cause friction and animosity in the clubhouse

Yep. But I don't see a way around this... I am almost certain (99%) that I saw a guy looking for his ball in the woods, and he picked one out of his pocket and placed it down by some leaves. It was quite clever in the way he did it, as he said 'oh, this looks like it here.' He then bent down to look at it and moved the leaves out of the way. His hand though came from out of his pocket and I am certain that he had a ball in his hand when doing so. I was pretty shocked but what could I do? I was quite sure it had happened, but not 100% and no one else in our group was anywhere near us.

Unfortunately, unless there are two witnesses, I don't think there's much that can happen.

 

[Siolag]

This ⬆⬆⬆ unless u have at least 1 more to back u up ur wasting ur time .. i told one of committee i cant wait til AGM to bring up lack of knowledge of rules . Email out this week . At end of email was people should familiarise themselves with the RoG . and a link to a rules page 😕😕

Surely there is a difference between not knowing all the rules and how to apply them, and outright cheating. There cant be a single person that steps out onto a golf course that thinks dropping a ball from a pocket or kicking a ball onto the fairway is allowed.