Jates12
Challenge Tour Pro
As you stated he had holed out so therefore he must of, you cant argue with that because that's what you wrote on the forum and there is no evidence either way.
As you stated he had holed out so therefore he must of, you cant argue with that because that's what you wrote on the forum and there is no evidence either way.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Not exact wording, for the ball to be deemed "holed out" the whole circumference of the ball must be below the lip of the hole, if when removing the flag the ball drops, it is deemed "holed out" if it stays embedded in side of hole and above lip the ball is removed and placed on side of hole and tapped in.
Someone else can probably give you the actual rule and correct words.
Paddy's mate would of been in breech of the rules if the whole ball was not below the lip when he picked it out, it doesn't have to be sitting in the bottom of the cup though.
Don Barzini
Assistant Pro
Yeah I agree, when we're just having a friendly game we just let him crack on and find it amusing. That occasion though it was part of a tournament we'd organised between ourselves. We were all playing to win, so I wasn't going to let him get away with it!
Pathetic Shark
Tour Rookie
The one thing I cannot agree with is "they're only cheating themselves". No they are not, they are cheating everyone else.
Yes there is a difference between inadvertent rule breaking and cheating and most golfers can tell the difference on the spot.
I caught our former captain cheating in last year's Captain's Day when he found his ball after at least 12 minutes looking whilst the rest of the group had finished out on the green. He then bullied a junior into signing the card with his score on that hole. We dealt with him.
Yes there is a difference between inadvertent rule breaking and cheating and most golfers can tell the difference on the spot.
I caught our former captain cheating in last year's Captain's Day when he found his ball after at least 12 minutes looking whilst the rest of the group had finished out on the green. He then bullied a junior into signing the card with his score on that hole. We dealt with him.
G
guest100718
Guest
I've only seen full out cheating a couple of times . it makes you wonder how much does go on though.
LincolnShep
Head Pro
I've seen inadvertent rule-breaking but never cheating. I hope I don't see it, at least not perpetrated by someone that I like...
Foxholer
Blackballed
Er...! If he 'holed out', then there's nothing more to say!
If you state that Tashy's '5 minutes' was unequivocal, then the same reasoning has to apply to your post!
Did he' hole out' or didn't he?!!
As for what i'd do if it hadn't been 'holed out' but was merely resting against the flagstick....As we approached the green, I'd make sure (s)he knew that if the whole ball was not below the level of the hole, then (s)he hadn't holed out yet and would have to make sure that the ball was allowed to drop fully (or sufficiently)! I've actually been in that situation a few times - once where a partner holed out from the fairway, once where a FC had a 'hole in 3' and once where a fellow committee member's other half failed to hole out properly, so was consequently DQ-ed. The excellent (winning!) score for the round was, however, counted for handicap - though that hole was deemed 'blobbed'!
If I was certain that the ball hadn't fallen below the required level and the FC had picked the ball out, I'd simply state...Unfortunately, the Rules require... If I wasn't quick enough to observe one way or the other, I'd ask the FC (and accept their reply) whether the whole ball was below the level of the hole, explaining the difference between each state. Like so many other conditions, the onus would then be on them as to whether to 'cheat' or not! That way, my conscience (about being fair to the rest of the field) would be clear and the likelihood of any bad feeling resulting would be minimised!
D
Deleted member 21258
Guest
I once caught one(call him C) of the opposite pairs cheating(pairs matchplay, just a social game for a few pounds iirc), and had to pull C on it. We were playing the 13th and they were beating me/partner by 5 holes, so basically we had lost. But he moved his ball on the sly away from trees so he could hit it, iirc P had lost his ball and then C didn't call a penalty on himself for the 'free' drop)
I spoke to his partner(call him P) that we had lost the game but why did he need to cheat like that as we were being killed out there by them. I just saw red and couldn't stop myself saying something and said by peace. To say it was awkward for the remaining holes is an understatement with a number of crossed words.
It was so awkward in fact that he didn't even have a drink with us or travel back with us...and I had driven three of us there(just me and P travelled back as C refused to get into the car). I never played golf with C again and we use to play probably half a dozen times a year. Wont like to see that happen again.
I spoke to his partner(call him P) that we had lost the game but why did he need to cheat like that as we were being killed out there by them. I just saw red and couldn't stop myself saying something and said by peace. To say it was awkward for the remaining holes is an understatement with a number of crossed words.
It was so awkward in fact that he didn't even have a drink with us or travel back with us...and I had driven three of us there(just me and P travelled back as C refused to get into the car). I never played golf with C again and we use to play probably half a dozen times a year. Wont like to see that happen again.
Foxholer
Blackballed
'building a stance' is nowhere as common as 'improving the lie' - and the Pro game is apparently not without a few potential candidates for this rule-break (which in their case IS cheating!). The instances I refer to are where a ball is in thick-ish rough and a wood or hybrid is initially selected to play the shot; after a couple of downward presses, the lie suddenly gets to a state where either the shot is a lot easier, or a more desirable club can be used!
G
guest100718
Guest
neat trick . never thought of that before.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
The breach of applying/following a rule will either be because of:
• Player Cheating
• Player Mistake
• Player didn’t know
• The cheat already knows what they’re doing & will either deny it & never accept your approach… or put it down to a mistake
• The player who knew the rule but made a mistake will either curse their own stupidity… or put it down to not knowing
• The player who didn’t know will either stare back at you with a look of disbelief that this game can be so cruel… or silently resolve to cheat next time
How on earth an FC is supposed to decide which is which I've no idea, so both marching over and letting it slide don't seem suitable options
• Player Cheating
• Player Mistake
• Player didn’t know
• The cheat already knows what they’re doing & will either deny it & never accept your approach… or put it down to a mistake
• The player who knew the rule but made a mistake will either curse their own stupidity… or put it down to not knowing
• The player who didn’t know will either stare back at you with a look of disbelief that this game can be so cruel… or silently resolve to cheat next time
How on earth an FC is supposed to decide which is which I've no idea, so both marching over and letting it slide don't seem suitable options
Foxholer
Blackballed
G
guest100718
Guest
Ignoring 'guest100718-gate' (aka Tashy-gate) was another 'neat trick'!
let it go.....
pool888
Assistant Pro
Does anyone know if there is a good summary of the most common rules of golf? My daughter has just started playing competitions, something that covered the most common issues would be good for her.
G
guest100718
Guest
there is. Google r and a quick rules guide
Orikoru
Tour Winner
One of those rules that can hardly be enforced though - I mean you always put your club on the ground to address the ball don't you? Just by doing that it naturally flattens the grass a little bit, particularly if using a hybrid as you say.
pool888
Assistant Pro
Got it thanks.
3565
Journeyman Pro
I enjoyed the Tashy 5 min-gate, I didn't contribute but it was fun. Now we've possibly got another on our hands with the 'he holed out' wording......
Sit back and let it begin??😂
Sit back and let it begin??😂
G
guest100718
Guest
Not at all I'll happily accept if I caused anyone confusion. no need for anyone to offer me a bailout.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Indeed.
IMO (rather than it being documented anywhere that I am aware of)
You are cheating if you knowingly break the rules with the intention of gaining an advantage. As a good example from previous posts someone gaining a few inches when marking their ball may gain a lot more advantage in their head than in practice - but there is still the intention to gain an advantage; however small.
Gaining an advantage through an action that is an unintentional breach of the rules is not cheating; it happens all the time and the rules themselves recognise this and cover off the way the committee, and fellow competitors, should deal with it.
Knowingly breaking the rules without intending to gain an advantage is also quite common and generally falls into the 'it doesn't matter because I'm not gaining an advantage/won't win anyway/intending to NR ' frequent examples are associated with dropping in the wrong place / not going back to the tee or where the last shot was played from. Mainly associated with saving time and effort. Most common outside 'proper competition's but can carry over by habit. In the cold light of day it's obviously daft, but seems the right solution at the time (huge parallels with life in general!). Can create awkward moments and should be avoided.
The best advice I can give people who face conflict over another's action is a friendly warning in the case of recurrent small actions (for marking the ball a simple suggestion that they may like to take a little more care in consistently marking the ball in the same way to avoid others concerns) ie avoid the suggestion that they did break the rules when there is the possibility of doubt. Where an action is observed that does break the rules you need to clarify that the action took place first in order to understand where to go next. If the action is agreed, but a breach of the rules denied, don't get involved in a 'ruling'. If you are their marker just state that you aren't so certain and it's one for the committee to decide. If you aren't their marker I would say the same thing and include their marker in the conversation.
There is no doubt that for some people the concept of breaking the rules not being cheating is difficult to understand; this is especially true of juniors, and doubly so with their parents! Once it is understood it becomes a lot easier to discuss issues with people both on, and off, the course.
