Handicaps- "Equal" Chance or Winning, Regardless of Ability?

[Lord Tyrion]

We can’t compete with that, but if you don’t play in the comp you don’t get a tee time .

That is plain wrong to me. I am lucky at my place in that there is a comp on a saturday but you don't have to enter it to get a round. Why should you be forced to play in a comp when actually all you want is a round of golf?

 

[clubchamp98]

That is plain wrong to me. I am lucky at my place in that there is a comp on a saturday but you don't have to enter it to get a round. Why should you be forced to play in a comp when actually all you want is a round of golf?

Numbers I am afraid.
There’s that many people want to play.
We book on the Monday at 7pm for Saturday if you don’t get a tee time by 7.01pm your not playing.
It’s a bit frustrating but same for everyone.

 

[Swango1980]

That is plain wrong to me. I am lucky at my place in that there is a comp on a saturday but you don't have to enter it to get a round. Why should you be forced to play in a comp when actually all you want is a round of golf?

I suppose it depends on the club. You might find that the tee is booked up all day with the competition field. Therefore, if you want to play on that day, you have to play in the comp really. No such problem at ours, as our competition slot is usually only around 2 hours in the morning.

 

[Canary Kid]

54 handicaps are mental. What other sport can you take up tomorrow, and be competitive right out of the blocks.
There is zero incentive to get better.
54? So par 72, shoot 126 and you are bang on? It's tosh.
Golf doesn't start until you can break 100.

At our club, you can enter a handicap competition regardless of your handicap, but you cannot win it unless your handicap is below a certain level ... I think 36, but I might be wrong. Therefore, a 54 capper cannot win it. England Golf apparently told the club that it could not exclude anyone with an official handicap, but it could cap the handicap level for winning a competition.

 

[clubchamp98]

I suppose it depends on the club. You might find that the tee is booked up all day with the competition field. Therefore, if you want to play on that day, you have to play in the comp really. No such problem at ours, as our competition slot is usually only around 2 hours in the morning.

We regularly have 190 players in comps in summer.In winter there is not enough time to fit them all in so it’s first come first served .

On the original point .at my last club in winter comps .
This table was used Not Q comps of course.

.full tees full greens 100% handicap.
Forward tees to full greens 75% handicap.
Forward tees ( mats) to temp greens 50% handicap.

The tables were turned a bit on the higher caps who were told “ if you don’t like it don’t play”.
That statement was usually aimed at the low handicappers.
These were only fun comps in winter.
But I do agree with early statement that monetary prizes do cause most arguments between handicap players ,
Some sweeps at mine are three figure sums.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Numbers I am afraid.
There’s that many people want to play.
We book on the Monday at 7pm for Saturday if you don’t get a tee time by 7.01pm your not playing.
It’s a bit frustrating but same for everyone.

I suppose it depends on the club. You might find that the tee is booked up all day with the competition field. Therefore, if you want to play on that day, you have to play in the comp really. No such problem at ours, as our competition slot is usually only around 2 hours in the morning.

Why should the competition players get priority though? If people work all week and want a game they may want to play without the pressure of the comp. They pay the same fees, why should they be excluded from getting out?

I get that lots of people want to play but that applies to comp and non comp players. People should be able to book their round and if they want to play the comp fine, enter. If not, just go out and play still. It's a historical restriction that comes under the heading of 'that's how it has always been. Personally, I don't think it makes sense any more.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why should the competition players get priority though? If people work all week and want a game they may want to play without the pressure of the comp. They pay the same fees, why should they be excluded from getting out?

I get that lots of people want to play but that applies to comp and non comp players. People should be able to book their round and if they want to play the comp fine, enter. If not, just go out and play still. It's a historical restriction that comes under the heading of 'that's how it has always been. Personally, I don't think it makes sense any more.

The club and the pro make money simple as that.
It pays for the prize money , trophy ,engraving the boards etc.
But social golf is not allowed in comp times at any time.
That’s how it’s always been
They did try it once and a few ladies played.
But they then refused to let the men play in empty slots in the ladies comp sheet.
That caused trouble as you can imagine.
So it’s back to MONEY.

 

[Swango1980]

Why should the competition players get priority though? If people work all week and want a game they may want to play without the pressure of the comp. They pay the same fees, why should they be excluded from getting out?

I get that lots of people want to play but that applies to comp and non comp players. People should be able to book their round and if they want to play the comp fine, enter. If not, just go out and play still. It's a historical restriction that comes under the heading of 'that's how it has always been. Personally, I don't think it makes sense any more.

If you didn't give priority to competition players, you could equally have a mutiny by the massive amount of people that play in competitions. You do what is best for the wishes of your membership. If you are a player who doesn't like to play in competitions, and you can only play on a day competitions are played, perhaps joining a club where 190+ people play in the competition is not for you.

 

[clubchamp98]

If you didn't give priority to competition players, you could equally have a mutiny by the massive amount of people that play in competitions. You do what is best for the wishes of your membership. If you are a player who doesn't like to play in competitions, and you can only play on a day competitions are played, perhaps joining a club where 190+ people play in the competition is not for you.

Yes spot on .
As I said many people who do want to play the comp are disappointed that they can’t get a tee time.
No problem in summer.
But must be very frustrating if you work all week 9/5 then can’t play Saturday.

 

[Grizzly]

No one format suits everyone.
I always found matchplay tough when giving a lot of shots away.
When they made it full handicap made it worse.
Imo golf is pandering to people who have no ambition to get better at the game.
Most of the changes the last few years are aimed at higher caps.
But it’s the 12/18. Caps that win most at my place. As soon as the course is off yellow in winter.
They can get on all par 4s in two now where they can’t off the whites.
On Saturday 4bbb 51 pts won Thats 15 under par.
So me and my pp need to shoot 9 under gross to tie.
We can’t compete with that, but if you don’t play in the comp you don’t get a tee time .

Ouch - I almost feel like I need to apologise on behalf of the not very good golfers of the world! For what its worth, on a personal level I can confirm that there is at least one (likely very) high handicapper who is going to be trying his proverbials off to get to at least a little less embarassing of a standard!

 

[Mandofred]

Why should the competition players get priority though? If people work all week and want a game they may want to play without the pressure of the comp. They pay the same fees, why should they be excluded from getting out?

I get that lots of people want to play but that applies to comp and non comp players. People should be able to book their round and if they want to play the comp fine, enter. If not, just go out and play still. It's a historical restriction that comes under the heading of 'that's how it has always been. Personally, I don't think it makes sense any more.

Comes back to your dislike of roll-ups as well.....for the same reason.....those times get blocked out unless you want to play in the comps. At least at our course, medals are entered on BRS and then drawn (I think in groups of 5 time slots? 15 people) so that you can't play with your buddies. Helps keep the questionable cheating down. They haven't done the draws since the re-start of playing.....not sure why. There are a lot of people starting to push for the roll-ups in some form to start up again......very popular and people are ticked-off that they haven't been going.

 

[patricks148]

No one format suits everyone.
I always found matchplay tough when giving a lot of shots away.
When they made it full handicap made it worse.
Imo golf is pandering to people who have no ambition to get better at the game.
Most of the changes the last few years are aimed at higher caps.
But it’s the 12/18. Caps that win most at my place. As soon as the course is off yellow in winter.
They can get on all par 4s in two now where they can’t off the whites.
On Saturday 4bbb 51 pts won Thats 15 under par.
So me and my pp need to shoot 9 under gross to tie.
We can’t compete with that, but if you don’t play in the comp you don’t get a tee time .

one of the ND winter comps i played last year i shot 48 points i think it was with 6 birdies, was quite pleased.... i wasn't even in the prizes

 

[clubchamp98]

Ouch - I almost feel like I need to apologise on behalf of the not very good golfers of the world! For what its worth, on a personal level I can confirm that there is at least one (likely very) high handicapper who is going to be trying his proverbials off to get to at least a little less embarassing of a standard!

Well thank you for trying.
Maybe I worded it a bit wrong.
It’s the players that could be off 10/12 but are just keeping to 16/18 so they can win three figure sweeps .
But there must be a limit to how many shots someone gets ,54 is to high in my honest opinion.
I played snooker but was crap ,so decided it wasn’t for me.

Genuine Question .
I have seen players hack it around ,not hitting the ball more than 50 yds .
Is that enjoyable really.?

 

[Slab]

Is there a report or a way to see how many 54 handicappers have won a club medal comp in the UK since the increase came in?

Not true (sadly). As I was talking about the shortened course in winter, handicaps cannot be touched, as we are no longer playing on a measured course (we do try and play full course when weather allows). In summer, playing on a measured course, everyone's handicaps are taken care off. So, no advantage to the low handicappers in summer (if the handicap system is fair to all), but they are at a disadvantage in winter if the course is severely shortened.

One way to look at it is, imagine a course with 18 par 4's, 400 yards in length. You have a 0 and 36 handicapper (Course Handicaps), whose handicaps are based on that course. If you were to convert that course into a Par 3 course, every hole 150 yards (i.e. for a fun comp, on the tee box on every hole you just pick the players balls up, then carry them to a spot on fairway 150 yards from green and ask them to play from there), clearly it would be unfair to the 0 handicapper if the 36 handicapper still played off 36. Because, if they did, you'd effectively be saying that both players would have the exact same ability to get to a point 150 yards from green, and the only difference in ability is from that point forward (i.e. when you reduced each hole by 250 yards, you effectively took 250 yards away in which the 36 handicapper didn't have to worry about messing up shots, or worry about lack of length, compared to 0 handicapper). For that fun comp, the system used for WHS could take care of it, by severely reducing the Slope compared to the par 4 course.

I did ask England Golf if there could be a way to manually change slope for individual comps, if we knew they'd be on winter greens. This was just to promote fairness in that comp, and it didn't need to be an official measurement as the results would have no impact on handicap calculations anyway, as they'd not be Acceptable Scores. It may be a question for the ISVs anyway, rather than England Golf

If the shorter winter course is in use (which I’m guessing is used purely for fun comps for a sleeve of balls etc due to weather/ground conditions preventing a proper round being played) why is it such a "huge issue for lower handicap" players, who wins?
If the winter course comps are of any greater stature (to justify it being a huge issue for lower handicaps) why didn’t the club get this winter course rated too?

 

[clubchamp98]

one of the ND winter comps i played last year i shot 48 points i think it was with 6 birdies, was quite pleased.... i wasn't even in the prizes

Just looked 48pts was joint third.
Good score though.

 

[Swango1980]

Is there a report or a way to see how many 54 handicappers have won a club medal comp in the UK since the increase came in?



If the shorter winter course is in use (which I’m guessing is used purely for fun comps for a sleeve of balls etc due to weather/ground conditions preventing a proper round being played) why is it such a "huge issue for lower handicap" players, who wins?
If the winter course comps are of any greater stature (to justify it being a huge issue for lower handicaps) why didn’t the club get this winter course rated too?

Because, for many people that play in comps, the fun is in competing. I guess a lower handicapper could say, why go out and play in cold windy conditions, because even if I play well, some 30 handicapper is going to shoot 48 points. I can see why some don't find that enjoyable. However, the 30 handicapper would be having loads of fun

 

[Slab]

Because, for many people that play in comps, the fun is in competing. I guess a lower handicapper could say, why go out and play in cold windy conditions, because even if I play well, some 30 handicapper is going to shoot 48 points. I can see why some don't find that enjoyable. However, the 30 handicapper would be having loads of fun

I get that for many people golf could be very competitive, I didn't realise that extended to fun comps that aren't even proper golf and not played on a proper course

That's pretty intense

 

[clubchamp98]

Is there a report or a way to see how many 54 handicappers have won a club medal comp in the UK since the increase came in?



If the shorter winter course is in use (which I’m guessing is used purely for fun comps for a sleeve of balls etc due to weather/ground conditions preventing a proper round being played) why is it such a "huge issue for lower handicap" players, who wins?
If the winter course comps are of any greater stature (to justify it being a huge issue for lower handicaps) why didn’t the club get this winter course rated too?

It’s not a huge issue.
But most low caps Are very competitive that’s how they get low.
They can’t compete on a very short course because most higher caps get into trouble off the tee with driver.
A very shortened course takes a lot of trouble , hazards out of play.
They have a moan but know it’s not going to change anything.
I still play winter comps but know I have very little chance of winning ,that’s fine.

The prize money is less in winter due to less players and I don’t think that’s a factor for most low cappers .
They just want a buzz from being in contention but with 46/48 pts winning most weeks at ours that’s just not going to be the case .

 

[Swango1980]

I get that for many people golf could be very competitive, I didn't realise that extended to fun comps that aren't even proper golf and not played on a proper course

That's pretty intense

I'm sure we are not talking about Ryder Cup intensity. There are a lot of people who are competitive in all aspects. Was it Gazza that said, even if he was playing his kid daughter at tiddly winks, he would 100% want to win?

 

[Mandofred]

Holy poop!!! Getting 48 pts isn't unusual? It's rare at our place for someone to get much over 40. I've won a couple of years ago with about 38 pts (div 1). I don't think I've seen individual scores up near 48? Maybe 42-44 or so.....rarely.