Handicaps- "Equal" Chance or Winning, Regardless of Ability?

[Yorkshire Hacker]

One advantage of WHS is that for fairly regular players it reflects relatively recent play whereas the 0.1 (regardless of just how bad) could take ages to reflect current ability.
How many seniors have handicaps that really reflect their performance when middle aged?

Well, writing from the viewpoint of my club, I honestly don't know anyone who's handicap is not a fair reflection of their ability.I think the 0.1 plus a handicap committee has served us well over the years.
And as for seniors, I am close to 70, and have just got down to my lowest ever handicap of 11, having tried for almost 20 years to get to single figures.
All our seniors put in strong performances, not every week admittedly, who does?

 

[clubchamp98]

54 handicaps are mental. What other sport can you take up tomorrow, and be competitive right out of the blocks.
There is zero incentive to get better.
54? So par 72, shoot 126 and you are bang on? It's tosh.
Golf doesn't start until you can break 100.

This for me also .
I gave up snooker because I was crap at it .
But no wonder the game is getting slower when someone can shoot 54 over and finish net par.
As for scratch comps most would be balloted out of these.
No handicap system is perfect but golfs seems to inclusive .
Maybe get to a certain level before entering comps.
I would suggest 36 max if you need two shots a hole .

 

[Beedee]

I've seen the opinion a number of times over the years about high handicappers winning too often and low handicappers not having a chance. So I had a look at all the stablefords and medals at my club this year to see what the distriubution of wins was.

Cat 1 - 4.6% of club members - 11.4% of wins
Cat 2 - 20.5% of club members - 18.4% of wins
Cat 3 - 41.0% of club members - 55.3% of wins
Cat 4 - 26.2% of club members - 14.0% of wins
Cat 5 - 5.0% of club members - 0.9% of wins
Cat 6 - 2.7% of club members - 0.0% of wins.

I would assume if things were truly fair then the percentage of club members should be pretty close to the percentage of wins, but it appears Cat 1s are winning a bit too often, Cat 2s about right, Cat 3's far too often and Cat 4s, 5s and 6s not often enough. So the problem isn't the really high handicappers, it's the teens who are capable of occassionally shooting a stupid good score.

PS - I freely admit, this isn't scientific and I'm not bored enough to check the distribution of categories of club members who enter competitions.

 

[USER1999]

I don't really care about winning comps, it's just pot hunting, which in my view is despicable.

It's turning up on a Friday swindle, and giving 20 something shots to a numpty who has no desire or incentive to get any better. Or worse still, he is my partner, and has no interest in competing, other than to occupy a few hours before the bar opens.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I don't really care about winning comps, it's just pot hunting, which in my view is despicable.

It's turning up on a Friday swindle, and giving 20 something shots to a numpty who has no desire or incentive to get any better. Or worse still, he is my partner, and has no interest in competing, other than to occupy a few hours before the bar opens.

Interested, do you have a handicap ? and are you still improving ?

 

[USER1999]

Interested, do you have a handicap ? and are you still improving ?

Yes, and no. I have played off 12 ish for 25 years, got down to 8.8 5 years ago, and am currently up to 10.8. Not happy with that, but on average, am still better than may be where I should be.

Why? What difference does it make?

 

[ExRabbit]

54 handicaps are mental. What other sport can you take up tomorrow, and be competitive right out of the blocks.
There is zero incentive to get better.
54? So par 72, shoot 126 and you are bang on? It's tosh.
Golf doesn't start until you can break 100.

When I did that for the first time, I decided I could perhaps join a golf club - and did so the year after (1998). Might take a year off in 2021 until it all settles down!

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

Shortened course over winter is a huge issue for lower handicappers (although this precise point is a little off tangent to the original point I suppose). When we are on winter greens, our course is about 450 yards shorter. I did extremely detailed analysis (bored at work) on what the impact of slope would be on the shortened course. This involved looking at almost 100 courses and the impact of length. Ultimately, it showed that slope would be around 85% the full course slope. Or, another way of putting it, players course handicaps would be 85% of full handicap. Therefore, at my course, if we were on winter greens it shows that competition would be fairer IF handicaps were reduced to 85%. You do make other good points mind, the skill in putting is largely removed, and therefore the advantage in that aspect is lost, in which most low handicappers have over high handicappers.

Although presumably low handicappers then have an advantage in spring/summer when the course is lengthened (both ability to hit distance and adapt to correct clubbing) and putting becomes a greater skill, as the higher handicappers will have lowered their handicap in winter playing a course 15% easier for them whereas lower handicappers won't have seen much of an adjustment. Assuming that is you can keep winter comps for handicap purposes.

 

[patricks148]

Nairn have certainly solved this problem, of the 10 silver trophys this year all but one were won by Cat 1 players, the one that wasn't was a handicap comp that clashed with the an elite comp

nothing to do with handicaps mind, they have stuck bunkers in the middle of a few fairways that many now have to lay up short of, if you can carry it 260 plus which tends to be all the young plus handicap guys the course has been made esier for them.

on the subject of winter comps, played in the Nairn Dunbar and kings ones last year, which was off 3/4 handicap and off forward tee's all of those where won by mid handicaps mostly guys off 12/15.

i don't think i've every seen anyone win anything at Nairn off higher than 16

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Two wins for single figure handicaps at ours this season, comps every Wednesday and every weekend.

One of the wins was a foul day with reductions only so its fair to say I tee up every time I play with no higher aim than to play for a cut.

I suspect I may win next season when I get my new higher handicap which hopefully will only be for a short time.

 

[Swango1980]

Although presumably low handicappers then have an advantage in spring/summer when the course is lengthened (both ability to hit distance and adapt to correct clubbing) and putting becomes a greater skill, as the higher handicappers will have lowered their handicap in winter playing a course 15% easier for them whereas lower handicappers won't have seen much of an adjustment. Assuming that is you can keep winter comps for handicap purposes.

Not true (sadly). As I was talking about the shortened course in winter, handicaps cannot be touched, as we are no longer playing on a measured course (we do try and play full course when weather allows). In summer, playing on a measured course, everyone's handicaps are taken care off. So, no advantage to the low handicappers in summer (if the handicap system is fair to all), but they are at a disadvantage in winter if the course is severely shortened.

One way to look at it is, imagine a course with 18 par 4's, 400 yards in length. You have a 0 and 36 handicapper (Course Handicaps), whose handicaps are based on that course. If you were to convert that course into a Par 3 course, every hole 150 yards (i.e. for a fun comp, on the tee box on every hole you just pick the players balls up, then carry them to a spot on fairway 150 yards from green and ask them to play from there), clearly it would be unfair to the 0 handicapper if the 36 handicapper still played off 36. Because, if they did, you'd effectively be saying that both players would have the exact same ability to get to a point 150 yards from green, and the only difference in ability is from that point forward (i.e. when you reduced each hole by 250 yards, you effectively took 250 yards away in which the 36 handicapper didn't have to worry about messing up shots, or worry about lack of length, compared to 0 handicapper). For that fun comp, the system used for WHS could take care of it, by severely reducing the Slope compared to the par 4 course.

I did ask England Golf if there could be a way to manually change slope for individual comps, if we knew they'd be on winter greens. This was just to promote fairness in that comp, and it didn't need to be an official measurement as the results would have no impact on handicap calculations anyway, as they'd not be Acceptable Scores. It may be a question for the ISVs anyway, rather than England Golf

 

[Swango1980]

Two wins for single figure handicaps at ours this season, comps every Wednesday and every weekend.

One of the wins was a foul day with reductions only so its fair to say I tee up every time I play with no higher aim than to play for a cut.

I suspect I may win next season when I get my new higher handicap which hopefully will only be for a short time.

Don't get too excited. You may be a relatively low handicapper, excited about an extra shot or 2 when WHS comes into play. However, many higher handicappers than you will most likely get even MORE shots back in general.

 

[Ethan]

It is worth going back to what handicap are all about, rather than just thinking of the changes that might occur from CONGU. They are a statistical way of summarising someone's playing ability with the intention that players of differing ability can have a fair game together. The problem is that not all players follow the same pattern of scoring. players of less ability have the greatest variability in their scores, players who are excellent at golf have much less variability. Therefore you can't build a system around the average score, you have to weigh the system towards the better score because that reduces the effect of the lesser players occasional very good (for them) score.

Hence we have CONGU which had an asymmetric system for reducing/increasing handicaps, but where there was drag caused by the limitations on how fast handicap could change, and WHS which is based on a moving average of top sliced better scores.

Both have biases. In CONGU, the streaky player who has an average score of 80, but a range between 70 and 90 will have a lower handicap than the guy who also has an average score of 80 but a range between 75 and 85, because there is greater downward pressure for good scores and the streaky guy has more of those. In WHS, these guys will have the same handicap. Equally, in WHS, a player who wants to get their handicap up for some big event can do so relatively quickly with a run of bad scores.

 

[Tommy10]

Would winter league count towards WHS handicap?

At our club we will play winter league off the yellows but a card is kept as per normal comps and score submitted through Howdidido.

I guess it might as we will have a course and slope rating for the yellow tees and we play on full greens all year.

 

[patricks148]

Would winter league count towards WHS handicap?

At our club we will play winter league off the yellows but a card is kept as per normal comps and score submitted through Howdidido.

I guess it might as we will have a course and slope rating for the yellow tees and we play on full greens all year.

my other clubs the kings in Inverness and Nairn Dunbar, both have chosen to run these as Q, both prev were just fun Non Q off 3/4 handicap

 

[Swango1980]

Would winter league count towards WHS handicap?

At our club we will play winter league off the yellows but a card is kept as per normal comps and score submitted through Howdidido.

I guess it might as we will have a course and slope rating for the yellow tees and we play on full greens all year.

Assuming you are playing by the rules of golf (i.e. not if you are playing match play for example), then I'd assume they would be deemed Acceptable Rounds

 

[Tommy10]

Would make sense to run it as a Qualifier as there are quite a few new guys who have been allocated handicaps which may be well off the mark (like last season), winter league would be an opportunity for handicaps to level out before serious stuff starts next Spring.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Don't get too excited. You may be a relatively low handicapper, excited about an extra shot or 2 when WHS comes into play. However, many higher handicappers than you will most likely get even MORE shots back in general.

I expect more than one or two..

 

[Grizzly]

I don't know if this is just my perception (and it may be influenced by just how hard I've found playing medal rounds to submit handicap cards when I'm used to the less stressful Stableford format that my social group plays, where you can knock a couple out of bounds, shrug it off and start again from scratch on the next) but I suspect that lower handicappers will tend to win most medal tournaments and matchplays - because they are way more consistent and make fewer mistakes - whereas higher handicappers will do better in Stableford comps because they can chase their losses/accrue points much quicker when, as happened to one of the lads I play with, your good run of par, bogey, birdie, par equates to 3,3,5,3 (lets face it, low handicappers are never taking 14 points in 4 holes!).

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't know if this is just my perception (and it may be influenced by just how hard I've found playing medal rounds to submit handicap cards when I'm used to the less stressful Stableford format that my social group plays, where you can knock a couple out of bounds, shrug it off and start again from scratch on the next) but I suspect that lower handicappers will tend to win most medal tournaments and matchplays - because they are way more consistent and make fewer mistakes - whereas higher handicappers will do better in Stableford comps because they can chase their losses/accrue points much quicker when, as happened to one of the lads I play with, your good run of par, bogey, birdie, par equates to 3,3,5,3 (lets face it, low handicappers are never taking 14 points in 4 holes!).

No one format suits everyone.
I always found matchplay tough when giving a lot of shots away.
When they made it full handicap made it worse.
Imo golf is pandering to people who have no ambition to get better at the game.
Most of the changes the last few years are aimed at higher caps.
But it’s the 12/18. Caps that win most at my place. As soon as the course is off yellow in winter.
They can get on all par 4s in two now where they can’t off the whites.
On Saturday 4bbb 51 pts won Thats 15 under par.
So me and my pp need to shoot 9 under gross to tie.
We can’t compete with that, but if you don’t play in the comp you don’t get a tee time .