Handicaps

[Backache]

Confirmation bias often results in misreading, misunderstanding or misinterpreting even the simplest of things.

Manipulation to get into scratch events was always a problem - it's only now we have tools that provide good evidence to be able available to do something about it that everyone is taking notice - with some completely misunderstanding EG policy because they have already decided that GP scores are bad.

The policy that you put up a while ago indicated that there was a problem of GP scores being used to achieve lower handicaps.
Orwell would be proud of this double-think.

It's complete cognitive dissonance from the authorities.

 

[Backache]

What evidence do you have to back that up particularly when compared to the UHS.

Some players I knew to 'manipulate' their handicaps also did so under the UHS. Failure to return cards and deliberately 'blowing up' on the last few holes being examples.

The evidence that I have that it enables cheaters is because it is frankly obviously easier to manipulate. I have seen no one dispute this .

I have not seen direct evidence that there is more manipulation, however I would be suprised if there was not more as it is human nature that when you make something easier to do it is more frequently done. And at a low level of manipulation I have heard on many occasions including myself of people who have adjusted when they put in cards that may affect their handicap.

 

[jim8flog]

The evidence that I have that it enables cheaters is because it is frankly obviously easier to manipulate. I have seen no one dispute this .

I have not seen direct evidence that there is more manipulation, however I would be suprised if there was not more as it is human nature that when you make something easier to do it is more frequently done. And at a low level of manipulation I have heard on many occasions including myself of people who have adjusted when they put in cards that may affect their handicap.

but how is this different to what happened under the UHS.

 

[Swango1980]

but how is this different to what happened under the UHS.

I wonder how many supplementary cards a player would need to submit under UHS to get the same sort of increases a player could obtain under WHS from submitting a handful of GP scores?

Also, supplementary scores had to be verified by Committee before touching a players record. They don't now. Although I appreciate that is probably something that would have had to change under UHS if there was ever a desire for players to submit as many social scores as possible, as it probably isn't feasible for many Committees to go through each score and verifying it first.

 

[D-S]

but how is this different to what happened under the UHS.

I would assume the ease of GP entry.
UHS had restrictions initially imposed, pre registration in person in the Pro Shop, only one per week, no Cat 1 players etc. although these were in the process of being eased. However I believe most if not all were manually entered by committee or Pro shop so there was a direct manual check. This resulted into GP scores being relatively rare and mainly confined to new golfers getting initial handicaps.
Now with EG App, ISV App or PSI entry ease and number of GP scores have increased exponentially. Oversight is patchy.
The number of ‘wrong’ GP scores entered is very large - the motivation for the ‘mistake’ is not always clear. Marker not present, player not present, pre registration at a time after which a round is not possible, played in wrong format, played when course is not ‘acceptable’ etc. etc. Some clubs are very diligent in thoroughly checking and deleting/marking as matchplay ‘wrong’ scores, many are not.

 

[Swango1980]

I would assume the ease of GP entry.
UHS had restrictions initially imposed, pre registration in person in the Pro Shop, only one per week, no Cat 1 players etc. although these were in the process of being eased. However I believe most if not all were manually entered by committee or Pro shop so there was a direct manual check. This resulted into GP scores being relatively rare and mainly confined to new golfers getting initial handicaps.
Now with EG App, ISV App or PSI entry ease and number of GP scores have increased exponentially. Oversight is patchy.
The number of ‘wrong’ GP scores entered is very large - the motivation for the ‘mistake’ is not always clear. Marker not present, player not present, pre registration at a time after which a round is not possible, played in wrong format, played when course is not ‘acceptable’ etc. etc. Some clubs are very diligent in thoroughly checking and deleting/marking as matchplay ‘wrong’ scores, many are not.

And, although the MyEG App requires verification from the marker, I would not at all be surprised many, if not most golfers doing this simply click "Approve" without any sort of check that the score is correct. They'll trust the score is correct, or not really be that bothered. And, I imagine it is easier to get a hole score wrong digitally as you are just clicking a button each hole. Compared to physically writing down a number on a scorecard, and that being checked afterwards when score being processed.

Thankfully, MyEG does score check so long as both players are inputting their scores, and warns the players when there is a difference. That msg appears fairly often as well, in my experience. That could be something that easily gets missed if only one player is submitting a score.

 

[Backache]

but how is this different to what happened under the UHS.

Easier implies less easy not previously impossible , I've not seen anyone seriously dispute this. It was possible to manipulate a handicap previously but now it is more readily done.

 

[D-S]

And, although the MyEG App requires verification from the marker, I would not at all be surprised many, if not most golfers doing this simply click "Approve" without any sort of check that the score is correct. They'll trust the score is correct, or not really be that bothered. And, I imagine it is easier to get a hole score wrong digitally as you are just clicking a button each hole. Compared to physically writing down a number on a scorecard, and that being checked afterwards when score being processed.

Thankfully, MyEG does score check so long as both players are inputting their scores, and warns the players when there is a difference. That msg appears fairly often as well, in my experience. That could be something that easily gets missed if only one player is submitting a score.

EG originally said that there would be geo location for the marker as well as the player but they have since said that they will now not be doing this. This alone would probably solve a few ‘wrong’ scores every week at my club as it is worrying how many players just get a mate to attest a score despite not playing with them.
We have been checking regularly and educating/disciplining (where necessary) our own players and informing other clubs whose players have put in wrong scores at our course. It is a regular occurrence when the clubs has Seniors or friendly matches that players put scores in ‘wrongly’. At our last 4BB comp 6 away players put in GP cards despite it being qualifying now. At our invitation day we had 4 away players submitting GP cards none of which were attested by their playing partners but by members of their own clubs or mates not present. We try hard to educate members but clearly not all clubs do.

 

[jim8flog]

I would assume the ease of GP entry.
UHS had restrictions initially imposed, pre registration in person in the Pro Shop, only one per week, no Cat 1 players etc. although these were in the process of being eased. However I believe most if not all were manually entered by committee or Pro shop so there was a direct manual check. This resulted into GP scores being relatively rare and mainly confined to new golfers getting initial handicaps.
Now with EG App, ISV App or PSI entry ease and number of GP scores have increased exponentially. Oversight is patchy.
The number of ‘wrong’ GP scores entered is very large - the motivation for the ‘mistake’ is not always clear. Marker not present, player not present, pre registration at a time after which a round is not possible, played in wrong format, played when course is not ‘acceptable’ etc. etc. Some clubs are very diligent in thoroughly checking and deleting/marking as matchplay ‘wrong’ scores, many are not.

But is all of this deliberate handicap manipulation? (subject of the posts)

 

[rulefan]

Confirmation bias often results in misreading, misunderstanding or misinterpreting even the simplest of things.

Manipulation to get into scratch events was always a problem - it's only now we have tools that provide good evidence to be able available to do something about it that everyone is taking notice - with some completely misunderstanding EG policy because they have already decided that GP scores are bad.

And previously Cat 1 (those entering the EG events) couldn't submit Supplementary Scores

 

[D-S]

But is all of this deliberate handicap manipulation? (subject of the posts)

No, of course not, but some of it is/maybe but it is an absolute minefield to sort out. Some clubs/committees are up to this relatively onerous task, a lot are not.

 

[badgergm]

EG originally said that there would be geo location for the marker as well as the player but they have since said that they will now not be doing this. This alone would probably solve a few ‘wrong’ scores every week at my club as it is worrying how many players just get a mate to attest a score despite not playing with them.
We have been checking regularly and educating/disciplining (where necessary) our own players and informing other clubs whose players have put in wrong scores at our course. It is a regular occurrence when the clubs has Seniors or friendly matches that players put scores in ‘wrongly’. At our last 4BB comp 6 away players put in GP cards despite it being qualifying now. At our invitation day we had 4 away players submitting GP cards none of which were attested by their playing partners but by members of their own clubs or mates not present. We try hard to educate members but clearly not all clubs do.

My favourite this year is a low handicapper trying to have the same (low) round count twice. Was an away 4BBB comp, and met all the criteria. Also submitted a GP card. Claimed there were individual prizes as well so counted as a separate card.

 

[Captain_Black.]

There is enough evidence out there now to conclusively be certain that the handicap system (WHS & ridiculous h/c allowance) has spoiled the majority of club comps.

To get in the top half a dozen or so, I'd have to shoot about 5 under gross, which isn't going to happen.
I play the odd comp to maintain my playing h/c (I don't ever put in GP cards)
The rest of the time, I just play for fun with a few mates.
It's much more enjoyable for me that way.