Brexit. Knowing what you know now...

[Crazyface]

I voted Remain in June, but voted out now. Out does me no good in terms of work, and especially with the plan to retire to Spain shortly. However, I feel that all the twisting, fiddling and conniving some of the politicians are doing is very wrong at a fundamental level.

They voted to have a referendum. They abdicated their responsibility to the electorate, and the electorate made a choice. Never mind its this percentage or that percentage. The 'rules of the game' are very clear. A majority of those who cared enough to vote voted out.

If there's another vote, I will choose out to protect the very fundamental rights that make up our democracy. Argue the toss by all means but respect the choice.

This post sums it all up. Well spoken Sir!

 

[Hacker Khan]

Out and now more firmly out as the truth and more details about the Italian and French finances surfaces: that's apart from Greece, Portugal and Spain's economic woes.

The UK still cannot afford the rapidly rising cost of sustaining the other inefficient members. The UK continues to obey the EU rules and guidelines when other (e.g. Germany, France, Italy etc.) don't bother unless it suits them.

Too many people in the UK have taken a UK centric and myopic view rather than look at how the other 26 and Brussels will cope on the global stage as the EU becomes more and more uncompetitive.

Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not. If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.

 

[Hobbit]

Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not. If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.

Whilst I agree with most of this, one thing immediately springs to mind. When an EU members economy fails we, as part of the EU, have to stump up not an insignificant sum as part of the bail out.

We're paying a fortune as a nett contributor anyway, and the bail outs. At least outside of the EU we'd save the nett contributions and the bailout, which would go a long way to protecting our economy from an economy that has failed rather than being dragged down with a sinking ship.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Whilst I agree with most of this, one thing immediately springs to mind. When an EU members economy fails we, as part of the EU, have to stump up not an insignificant sum as part of the bail out.

We're paying a fortune as a nett contributor anyway, and the bail outs. At least outside of the EU we'd save the nett contributions and the bailout, which would go a long way to protecting our economy from an economy that has failed rather than being dragged down with a sinking ship.

Possibly. But the other argument is that it is in the interests of our economy to ensure that EU members economies do not fail. And potentially the money we spend on bailing them out is worth it in terms of the long term continual success of our economy. I agree the short term hit may not look so good, but it may provide long term value.

I just feel IMHO that our economy is far to linked to the global economy nowadays, and no amount of money saved by not contributing the the EU (that is all going to the NHS anyway I understood) will prop us up in the event of a serious EU meltdown. Better to be in the tent etc etc.

 

[Hobbit]

Possibly. But the other argument is that it is in the interests of our economy to ensure that EU members economies do not fail. And potentially the money we spend on bailing them out is worth it in terms of the long term continual success of our economy. I agree the short term hit may not look so good, but it may provide long term value.

I just feel IMHO that our economy is far to linked to the global economy nowadays, and no amount of money saved by not contributing the the EU (that is all going to the NHS anyway I understood) will prop us up in the event of a serious EU meltdown. Better to be in the tent etc etc.

We're linked to global economies but not in their tent. Best be out of a burning tent. TBH, I think any path is shades of grey. There is no right or wrong answer, only choices that have both positives and negatives.

 

[drdel]

Trouble is we are in an interlocked global economy now whether we like it or not. If European countries are struggling financially we will be significantly effected whether we are in the EU or not. We do not use the euro anyway, so coming out of the EU will IMHO do very little to protect us from any economic troubles in Italy and France.

A lot of the major banks, power companies, manufacturing employers in the UK are foreign owned, we can't go back to the 1960s when economies were mostly domestically driven, we can't cut ourselves off from the global economy, that ship has sailed a long time ago. One stock market crashes and the rest all follow. IMHO coming out of the EU will in reality give us very little, if any, additional protection from any economic problems but it will severely hinder the opportunities for UK companies to trade easily with EU countries.

I'm afraid you're being myopic. We have more inward and external investment with the RoW. The EU is disparate and is paying the price for its Euro centric policies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Which is quite refreshing to hear as we Leavers were accused of not understanding what we were voting for and if given an opportunity to vote again many would vote Remain.

Unfortunately I have concerns that do not reduce the more I hear Leavers from the north of England (Sheffield up) tell us their #1 reason for voting so - that it was immigration. And that is fair enough reason - but I think you have to then accept that immigration might not actually be reduced - and that the current issues that many of these voters associate with the number of immigrants currently in the UK are not going to go away by even stopping outright more arrivals - because we are not going to throw out any current immigrants. And many of these (poorer) voters in poorer northern communities will not be happy.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I'm afraid you're being myopic. We have more inward and external investment with the RoW. The EU is disparate and is paying the price for its Euro centric policies.

You may be missing my point. I am not arguing about the level of trade we have, although we did export around 220 billion to the EU in 2015 which is a hefty chunk in anyone's language. And 53% of our imports came from the EU https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ which by my maths makes that bigger than the rest of the world. Plus EU countries make up half of our foreign direct investment https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/united-kingdom/foreign-investment

Ut was more that global economies are intertwined and that coming out of the EU will practically do relatively little to shield us if European economies crash. Hobbit thought the money we save on contributions may make up for this, I'm not so sure. But I am sure as hell not convinced with the argument of some Brexiters that we can not worry too much about trade with the EU as the rest of the world will pick up the slack., Especially in a world of increasing isolationism and nationalism.

 

[Hobbit]

Unfortunately I have concerns that do not reduce the more I hear Leavers from the north of England (Sheffield up) tell us their #1 reason for voting so - that it was immigration. And that is fair enough reason - but I think you have to then accept that immigration might not actually be reduced - and that the current issues that many of these voters associate with the number of immigrants currently in the UK are not going to go away by even stopping outright more arrivals - because we are not going to throw out any current immigrants. And many of these (poorer) voters in poorer northern communities will not be happy.

Disappointing post Hogie.

The majority of northerners I've spoken to that voted out did so more because David Cameron was promoting Remain. Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain was seen as Leave. The north, in the main, doesn't trust nor vote Tory. Immigration wasn't spoken about by many people, but federalism and EU rule was.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Disappointing post Hogie.

The majority of northerners I've spoken to that voted out did so more because David Cameron was promoting Remain. Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain was seen as Leave. The north, in the main, doesn't trust nor vote Tory. Immigration wasn't spoken about by many people, but federalism and EU rule was.

I do hope that is the case and it wasn't immigration. My observation was simply based on my experience of listening to what some northerners thought about Labour party prospects in the northern towns and cities. And the conclusion was that it is not good as Labour were totally out of touch with the 'ordinary man' - specifically Labour did not appreciate or reflect that the most important thing for Northerners in the Referendum was immigration - it was their clear #1 issue.

I hope not. For there be demons.

 

[bluewolf]

I do hope that is the case and it wasn't immigration. My observation was simply based on my experience of listening to what some northerners thought about Labour party prospects in the northern towns and cities. And the conclusion was that it is not good as Labour were totally out of touch with the 'ordinary man' - specifically Labour did not appreciate or reflect that the most important thing for Northerners in the Referendum was immigration - it was their clear #1 issue.

I hope not. For there be demons.

Wow, a little bit of listening and you've got us Northerners all worked out!! We're just not as cultured and independent minded as them there Southerners. It's all about those bloody foreigners for us, because we're too stupid to understand economics and sociology.

I do hope you can stick around and do some missionary work with us savages.....

 

[Fish]

Wow, a little bit of listening and you've got us Northerners all worked out!! We're just not as cultured and independent minded as them there Southerners. It's all about those bloody foreigners for us, because we're too stupid to understand economics and sociology.

I do hope you can stick around and do some missionary work with us savages.....

I hope the above is typed out ok for you, I could just about read your misspelt crumpled up note on the pigeon you sent down to me 😜

 

[delc]

Which is quite refreshing to hear as we Leavers were accused of not understanding what we were voting for and if given an opportunity to vote again many would vote Remain.

The demographics will have changed a bit by now though. Some of the old folk with a nostalgic wish to return to how things were in the 1940's and 50's will have died, and younger, more pro-EU people will have become eligible to vote. After what happened last time, the younger people might also realise the importance of actually turning out to vote! The fact that they didn't last time is probably why the Opinion Polls got it wrong.

 

[chrisd]

The demographics will have changed a bit by now though. Some of the old folk with a nostalgic wish to return to how things were in the 1940's and 50's will have died, and younger, more pro-EU people will have become eligible to vote. After what happened last time, the younger people might also realise the importance of actually turning out to vote! The fact that they didn't last time is probably why the Opinion Polls got it wrong.

I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !

 

[Hobbit]

I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !

He does have a valid point Chris. There's been just ove 220,000 old people die off since the vote, and almost 300,000 youngsters become eligible to vote. And everyone knows that all 230,000 oldies voted out and all 300,000 youngsters will vote in. And its pretty obvious that a swing of 500,000 will overturn a majority of 1,300,000.

 

[delc]

I'm worried how you manage to come up with tosh like this !

The Leavers don't want another referendum because they might lose, for the reasons I gave.

 

[Imurg]

The Leavers don't want another referendum because they might lose, for the reasons I gave.

Have you asked all of them?
Have you asked all those who voted to stay if they want another one.?
Really Del, it's time to leave this alone....
Your rantings and ravings are no going to change anything.
Half of the GM forum is virtually off limits for me down to the arguing about Brexit.
It is what it is, it will be what it will be.
Let the people who's job it is to sort it out, sort it out.
Once they've finished - that will be the time to start arguing......Again...

 

[bluewolf]

I hope the above is typed out ok for you, I could just about read your misspelt crumpled up note on the pigeon you sent down to me 😜

Can you make sure you send Errol back please. I still have some Christmas cards to send.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Can you make sure you send Errol back please. I still have some Christmas cards to send.

Don't do it Fish, poor Errol will probably end up as the Christmas dinner……

 

[Blue in Munich]

He does have a valid point Chris. There's been just ove 220,000 old people die off since the vote, and almost 300,000 youngsters become eligible to vote. And everyone knows that all 230,000 oldies voted out and all 300,000 youngsters will vote in. And its pretty obvious that a swing of 500,000 will overturn a majority of 1,300,000.

Bri, you forgot to add in those who'd switch votes just to be rid of the Remainers' perpetual bloody whinging.