Are "Exclusive" golf clubs ruining the spirit of the game?

[John_Findlay]

Excuse me, guys, but this is a bit of a bug bear for me, so forgive my rant.

Been reading the recent posts about waiting lists etc and this has re-ignited my annoyance at the ever increasing trend for the "exclusive" clubs based on the American style of membership, i.e. HUGE joning fees and a strictly private, members only policy.

Ewan Murray's comment at the HSBC today reminded me about Queenwood in Surrey. The joing fee is so high that when a chap was offered a membership the golfer's wife mentioned to him that the postman had been with his letter confirming he had BOUGHT his new golf club

It seems that my area is going the same way. Muirfield is only a mile away from my home course and we all know how exclusive that can be but at least they are golfers! They are so madly in love with their course that they don't even like it when the Open turns up because it takes members tee times away! Which is strange, because they are immensely hospitable to visitors.

However, there are another 2 new clubs nearby where the joing fees are.....deep breath...£20,000 and £37,500 respectively! What is going on? Are these sort of clubs going to ruin the spirit of British golf clubs, where traditionally, fees are some of the most reasonable in the world and the members actually LOVE the GAME rather than the nonsense associated with the kudos attached to being a member at a club where the average Joe wouldn't get let onto the grounds.

Personally, it's all about the course for me. If it's a good course I'm happy to pay a decent membership fee. But £37,500? Sorry, guys. No course on the planet is worth that kind of money. FFS, the best course in Scotland (in my eyes), Carnoustie, charges £300 per year.

I guess I'm just one of these "socialist" golfers who believes that every good course should be available to vistitors, (often at good rates) along the lines of EVERY Open Championship venue we have.

Am I alone in thinking that the knock on effect of the exclusive clubs doesn't bear thinking about? Or am I just jealous that I'll never get a game at Loch Lomond? (Joining fee £50,000)

 

[madandra]

J_F I think that the 'marketing' erses have manipulted wealthy and gullable people into believing that these exclusive clubs are good for networking, corporate profile and exposure and are also tax deductible. As long as we have camel coat clad Arfur Dailly's and folk with more money than sense these clubs will prosper. Us mortals can only look on in awe when the pampered pro's tread the fairways on the bonnie banks.

 

[DCB]

J_F You have to look at the roots of the game here in Scotland and remember that it was originally an working mans game. Travel around Scotland now and probably 95% of the Clubs are still catering for the average working man. I have played courses on holiday where the club makes a lot of its income from holiday traffic, but the memebers still moan about increases in annual greenfees. When you talk to these people and tell the what an average annual fee is in Edinburgh, the can't believe it.

I think the golf boom of the mid eighties into the mid nineties when there were so many courses planned and built was a turning point. There has been a big financial payout to make a course so it has to make a return, a good return, and quickly! As a result we are seeing clubs where the annual fees are far greater than ever before. The examples you are no doubt refering to, possibly to the East of Gullane ? are being created for a particular market. They will no doubt find their share of that market but does that make the golfers who play there any happier? I don't know and will probably never be in a position to find out!

I have been a member at my own club for over twenty years and now see a more transient membership than ever before. People are moving about because of their careers, maybe they aspire to being a member of one of the 'big' clubs or excusive clubs, I don't know the answer to that.

As long as I can turn up to play and don't have to wait too long to tee off I'll be happy. It's my club and as a members club I have a say in how it runs. Long may that last.

 

[pingpal]

Just the way the world is these days. Never mind, there are more than enough courses for us normal folk. The joining fee for my club was £190 and we have annual subs about that too. That suits me just fine. Personally if I am charged more than £40 for a day ticket anywhere I feel like I'm being ripped off and probably wont enjoy it. We are spoiled in the NE here - good inland tracks up Deeside, Donside, Turriff, Duff House and dozens of excellent seaside links from Nairn all the way to Montrose. All charge reasonable visitor fees bar Royal Aberdeen.
Take your business elsewhere and forget about these 'exclusive' establishments - full of 'nouveau riche' high handicapping bullshi&&ers.

 

[John_Findlay]

The examples you are no doubt refering to, possibly to the East of Gullane ?

Yes, DCB. As a local, you'll know that I'm happy to name and shame Archerfield and the Renaissance Club. Good courses both...but when these "nouveau riche" clubs (thankyou, Pingpal) increase in number what are the traditional clubs going to do? Raise their fees beyond the reach of those who form the backbone of the present golfing community?

 

[Golfer2112]

JF,

There are a finite number of rich, stupid people who will pay that sort of money to be a member of an exclusive club. And I am quite happy that they choose to segregate themselves from the rest of us at these places where any car under 3 litres is excluded from entry. Traditional members clubs are the backbone of this country and long may they thrive.

My club, like many, has a wide variety of members from cab drivers and tradesmen up to millionaires and it is precisely that mix which makes it such a great place. Such clubs will never raise their prices beyond what the market can stand and, given that many clubs now have a small or indeed no waiting list, I can't see this changing in the future.

There is also a worry "corporatisation" of golf at the upper level where you have fab courses, such as Loch Lomond, which only get played by bankers, Ernst & Young partners and other such corpotrate luminaries. Unfortunately this is an inevitable side effect of the culture in which we live.

Yours was an excellent post and a well made point but my $0.02 says that it is nothing to worry about.

g_2112.

 

[USER1999]

My view on this is that there will always be someone who wants to build an 'exclusive' club because they have more money than sense.

My problem with this is not that they shouldn't be allowed to do it, but that it should not be endorsed by the pro golf tours. All golf courses promoted by the tour should be accessible, or they are not promoting the game, just the venue. There is no way the tour should be playing Loch Lomond (however beautiful) because the average golfer cannot go there and play. This is not furthering the sport at all.

As is pointed out earlier, all the open venues can be played, and this is the right way to do it. The future of the game depends on accessibility for all.

 

[Doh]

Well for me the answer is simple, somebody wants to make to make a lot of money and this is just another way to do it.It does NOTHING for the grass roots of golf and i'm sure it has no intention of doing so.If people want to spend their money this way fine, but you will never create or benifit from the atmoshere we have at our clubs where members are able to have an input into how their club is run.

 

[muttleee]

It's all supply and demand. While there are enough daft people willing to pay tens of thousands to join what they consider to be exclusive clubs, they'll prosper. The way I understand it, most of these clubs operate by selling you a share in the actual club itself - hence the high cost of membership. I think most of those clubs also allow members to sell their share at a later date, which presumably means a lot of the cost can be recouped - unlike the fees at our clubs. Is it even possible that these wealthy "golfers" could make a profit by doing this?! Perhaps these guys see joining one of these clubs as an investment rather than an opportunity to play golf.

 

[HTL]

It could just be me but every rich golfer i have played against is crap!

its quite obvious that a lot of these clubs with stupid green fees etc, have members who are more concerned with doing funny hand shakes with each other and brown nosing.

Just let them get on with it, however, if they begin to hold the game back by not letting competitions or maybe a talented youngster develop on their course, how could the powers that be step in?

 

[muttleee]

I doubt many promising youngsters could afford to join these elite clubs in the first place but if they could and then found their talent being stifled, they shouldn't have any problem joining somewhere else instead. Judging by another recent post, it seems that low handicap amateurs can jump the queue at a lot of clubs.

 

[pingpal]

Is it even possible that these wealthy "golfers" could make a profit by doing this?! Perhaps these guys see joining one of these clubs as an investment rather than an opportunity to play golf.

Good thinking 'outside of the box' Muttlee.

The real moral question is -if you were absolutely minted, owned a couple of Bentleys and had bags of time off would you join (invest?) in one of these evil and wicked golf clubs - hmmmmm??

 

[RGuk]

Oh, good stuff!!

I have no interest in exclusive clubs at all and wouldn't waste my money on some place with a simply ludicrous joining fee.

I also avoid the places that charge whatever they can get away with for green fees, which, I admit, counts me out of many of the great courses on this island. I fully agree with pingpal about the visitors fees and think that any good course that has the time (tee times) and inclination to accept real everyday players (not on the business expenses) should take a long look at their charges. Most of the great midlands courses have gone "way out there" with the green fees, and in the long run, the very popularity of these quality tracks will wane as a rich and rubbish players won't appreciate the places in the same way.

Raising the stakes across the board will only lead to disaster long-term and then famous members clubs may struggle to get ordinary folk to join and make up the ranks of decent folk who enjoy the game. There are not enough minted players to fill every club with an ambition of being exclusive.....I won't shed any tears when some of these places fold.

Dave

 

[John_Findlay]

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Some cracking and very thought provoking comments, particularly from Golfer2112, murphthemog and muttlee, I thought.

I think part of me thinks that this type of membership (usually big debentures) offends the senses of golfers in the UK because we've been spoilt for choice for so long with great courses at prices which foreigners can't believe. I don't want to see that change.

On the other hand I'd be partly placated by the opportunity to play their courses- Kingsbarns is a good example (no members but discounted green fees for locals). But, as Golfer2112 said, if these clubs want to keep their toys to themselves then hell mend them when it all goes pear-shaped.

 

[GB72]

Has anyone experienced the reverse of this with their club losing any degree exclusivity for members. The club nearest me is giving more time to societies and since a hotel was added, has introduced compulsory tee bookings for members so as the hotel guests can block book in advance. Furthermore, if you want to hire a buggy, hotel guests get priority over members, even seniors. Whilst I am in no way supporting elitist establishments as described above, the business side of golf can cause problems when all vesitges of member privelege are removed

 

[medwayjon]

Thats a great point GB72, If things ave deteriorated to that level at your local club then is it worthbeing a member anymore?

Would be better off paying £100 or so a year for membership without playing rights just to manage ones handicap and then pay a green fee wherever you fancy playing.

I think that the club you have mentioned is acting in a disgraceful way, yes clubs are businesses but members have to gain some benfit from their subs. If I was a member I would be having some serious words with the commitee.

Out of interest, are a lot of members abandoning this club since these changes? I would have been on my bike long ago!

 

[furyk_or_unique]

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about here - there always have been highly exclusive clubs and always will be as long as there are people willing to pay. In many ways golf is now less exclusive than it's ever been, certainly south of the border, as the number of golf facilities has outstripped the supply of golfers, leaving many former exclusive clubs having to open their doors more widely.

I don't think you've got anything to worry about in East Lothian JF as the coastline is just one continuous golf course from my recollection. The fact that you're unable to play a couple still leaves you with about 30-odd to choose from!

It depends what you're looking for in a golf club ultimately doesn't it. If money really is no object and rich and famous people can be guaranteed hassle-free golf and a tee-time whenever they want, then for the super-rich, no price is too much to pay especially if the initial fee is some sort of debenture or investment bond which is ultimately refundable or may even mature in value.

Like it or not, it is just how it is, and if it's any consolation, there have been a great many of these intended super-rich clubs that have now had to rethink and are pretty much available to all - only a handful survive, because there are ultimately only so many people with so much money to spend on their golf.

Or is the crux here that in all of us there is some sort of secret hankering to belong to just such a club...?

 

[madandra]

I was recently at a trade show in Gleneagles and was invited to a round of golf. When I met everyone who wanted a game on the range I realised the old saying was so true

'ALL THE GEAR, NO IDEA'

These 'chaps' were all very affluent but couldn't hit a cows arse from 2 feet with a spade. Two of them had spent £500-700 the day before getting kitted out for their golfing baptism. I made my apologies and made a bolt for the car park. I hate to think what state the course would have been in after their marauding round like little Lord Snooty on speed.

I would rather play a muni with a bloke in jeans before playing with pompous erses like those.

 

[USER1999]

When the Grove opened in Watford (not Chandlers Cross as they would like it to be)40 members of my club were invited to play there. These were average club members. 10 broke 30 pts, 20 broke 20pts and 10 were below 20 pts stableford. Most lost an average of 3 balls, because the rough was ridiculous.
The ideal customer for the course was viewed as being someone who plays golf 4 times a year, and is willing to blow £200 plus on the day.
Unfortunately, the sort of bloke who does this doesn't enjoy loosing a ball a hole, so the place was empty. 60m to develope a course, no golfers.
It is busier now, but the rough is nowhere near as penal. The green fees remain extortionate.
It is where the England footy team play. Say no more.

Being a Watford resident, living 150 yards from the front gate, it would be nice to get a local discount, but no, none is forth coming.

 

[madandra]

We all say that the great divide in golf courses is getting narrower but the truth is that the gap between the elite of society and the minions is wider than ever. How can you honestly justify a guy who kicks a ball about getting paid more in one month than a nurse gets in a LIFETIME.

I stopped gong to the footy years ago because of this point of principle and I am starting to feel the same towards these golf courses.

In May we played Torrance Bay in St Andrews and it cost £60 each on the basis of 2 for 1. That makes it £120 per round and more expensive than the Old Course .... Aye right. Its a dump and a building site and is not worth £40 for a day ticket. Lets boycott these private corporate americanised polyesther golf course.