The participation link doesn't half distort matters if the sport is played by people from either India or China.
Do the same 4 or 5 athletes just keep changing passports?
This is a debate with no answer but to throw my hat in, you talk about barriers:
Redgrave, How many people have access to rowing, in this country or other?
Murray, tennis is as elitist as golf
Hoy, how many people in this or any country have access to a velodrome?
British Olympic association have been really smart at throwing money at minority sports that enable us to medal well. Well done them but participation around the world has to be taken into account when judging how good people are.
I'll throw a fun one in, Joe Calzaghe. World champion, unbeaten. Can't do much more than that.
I don't think we have a clear greatest ever, no one has mentioned any team sports players so far, but we have some crackers for a general top 10.
I agree with most of this post, and that's why Redgrave and Hoy aren't with the others in my Top 3 but I don't get the elitist perception of tennis?
Everyone has the chance to pick up a tennis racquet in the school playground, it's on the PE curriculum, many comp primary schools have after school clubs etc etc.
There's over 20 nations represented in the top 30 men's players, many of which aren't exactly the richest nations on earth.
Travel around Europe and many villages have free to play courts.
Happy to be enlightened, I just don't see how it can viewed as elitist and/or with barriers to enter?
Imo anyone may be able to have a go at school, but to take it up properly involves crazy money to the average family.
My work colleagues lad was the county champion aged 6 through to 9 and even then it was a lesson a week minimum at £40. Plus it was over 2hrs commute. I don't think many average families can cover that.
Change tennis for nearly every sport other than football in this country. Same result. Doesn't make it elitist.
Having done work at and for some of the staff at Queens, I can tell you elitism is firmly at the top of their tree. A commoner playing tennis, heavens forbid.Change tennis for nearly every sport other than football in this country. Same result. Doesn't make it elitist.
That may be the case, but elitism has been used as a reason for discounting golf. I see a lot more kids playing golf than tennis.
You can see that, but I'd suggest the participation numbers at junior level in this country aren't close between the sports. I'd give you very good odds if you think you can show 'a lot' more kids play golf than tennis 😉
There are free tennis courts all over the UK, and all over the world. It's a truly global game with little barrier to entry. That's what makes Murray one of our greatest athletes imo, certainly above any golfer, rower or velodrome cyclist
I don't think we have a clear greatest ever, no one has mentioned any team sports players so far, but we have some crackers for a general top 10.
Steve Redgrave.
He won 5 golds over 5 Olympic Games ....................... but he never rowed alone, there was always someone else rowing with him.
Just saying.
I didn’t know of any free courts back home (Southampton) when growing up. Of course I didn’t have google then. But all I will say in regards to participation is that whilst playing golf at weekends or during summer. I’ve seen more kids on the course than on the courts when I drive to work.
But to be honest I really don’t think that it’s relevant when discussing the greats though if I’m honest. The very best in any sport make it due to them being the very best. If anything if a sport is more elitist then surely the odds of making it in said sport is even more likely as that’s another barrier to you making it in the first place.
You'll see what you want to see, in whatever environment you're in at a time. I didn't realise just how many houses had for sale signs outside until I was looking to buy a house. I didn't realise how many women were pregnant until my wife was etc etc. If you've never looked for free tennis courts, or kids playing tennis, then you'll never notice them. I'd wager you spend a vast amount of time around golf clubs in comparison to tennis clubs, so of course you'll see that. This is in no way a criticism by the way, just a nuance of life.
The 2nd paragraph is literally what I've been saying. Murrays achievements in a global sport with little barrier to entry should imo be regarded higher than similar achievements in elitist sports, or those with a small footprint. There's simply less people with the interest or inclination taking up those sports as a junior or competing as professionals.
I say all of this as someone with no history playing tennis at all, and if Wimbledon was shown on BT Sport I'd probably never watch a single minute of it. Nor am I in any way Scottish!
So he let the others do the real oar pulling? .Steve Redgrave.
He won 5 golds over 5 Olympic Games ....................... but he never rowed alone, there was always someone else rowing with him.
Just saying.
Whilst I clearly disagree, I can’t argue with with the argument you put forward and can see why you would find merits in it.
Tbh I’d not pay to watch tennis either, but I would do for golf. Does that make it a more relevant sport 😉😉