Alterations to WHS?

[Genu9]

I think its time to close off this thread. It's got so far away from the original point.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Oh no!

First 16 pages were very dull.
Last two pages - the discussion got very interesting and lively.

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Sorry if TLTR. I have attempted to list the impacts of CR-par to get my head around making sure my issues are covered when we eventually get the briefings. Anything incorrect? Have I missed anything?

Player impact:
1. Every player's un-rounded CH will change by the same amount, namely CR-par.
2. Due to a) rounding, b) Slope and c) the decimal value of CR, a rule of thumb on how this impacts rounded CH will be that for each 0.1 that CR varies from Par approximately:

• Slope 102. One in eleven players will see a CH change.
• Slope 113. One in ten will see a CH change.
• Slope 125. One in nine will see a CH change.
• Slope 141. One in eight will see a CH change.
• For example: Slope 141, Par 72, CR 72.3. 3/8ths should have an increase of 1 in CH.
• For example: Slope125, Par 72, CR 70.9. Everyone will have a reduction in CH. 1/9th should be reduced by 2.

3. The HI level that dictates Divisions, Eligibility etc will also move in line with the above. The greater the difference between CR & Par will reflect in a larger movement. This impacts all formats of play.
4. Therefore the HI level that dictates at which point the 95% Handicap Allowance effects PH will change. Again, the size of that change will be driven by the difference between CR & Par.
5. Achieving 36 Stableford points (or nett Par) against CH will always approximately equal playing to Handicap. (Some will see this as a benefit of the change. I don't).
6. As a player's CH changes up or down, then the point that NDB occurs will also move. Relative to other players at that course, the change up/down stays the same.
7. Course Handicap Adjustments will no longer be necessary for Mixed Tee competitions. (This is a benefit of the change).
8. Other than the NDB above, there is zero change as to how SD will be calculated as a result of CR-Par. This change will therefore not materially impact anyones HI.
9. When we play in most countries outside GB&I the calculation for a CH will be consistent. (This is potentially a benefit of the change but impacts approximately 0.1% of rounds).

Club admin impact:
10. Update members on the above.
11. Handicap Boards, websites etc, require updating.
12. Terms of Competition need review/update to reflect HI eligibility alterations.
13. Confirm the ISV has the changes in hand. (On the 1st April, a Bank Holiday, as usual we currently have a mixed-tee, mixed-gender Greensomes scheduled. What could go wrong).

In readiness for the members briefing, some things unaffected by CR-Par (unless of course you don't believe them):
14. Higher handicaps will still be advantaged by WHS in matches/competitions.
15. Handicap increases will continue to happen too quickly.
16. The PCC will still be a nonsense.
17. The USGA Course Rating System (tm) will maintain the same flaws.
18. 54 Handicap Indexes, unrestricted Casual Rounds and mandated Handicap Allowances are all still daft.
19. There is no let up on the additional burden caused by WHS on Handicap Secretaries.
20. The WHS will continue to allow for cultural differences in how golf is played around the world as long as you are American.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Might have been worth pointing out at the start of the above, that this is a transitional change on the one day that CR-Par comes in.
Once it is done, it is done.
Then, carry on as before.

Those seeing a change in CH, when others may not see a change in CH, can consider that there has always been the case that you and your mate might have the same CH at your club/course, but if you go to another course you could have a shot difference. This will continue to be a case/possibility when you transition to another course.
Introduction of CR-Par is a transitional change that will occur on one day.

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Might have been worth pointing out at the start of the above, that this is a transitional change on the one day that CR-Par comes in.
Once it is done, it is done.
Then, carry on as before.

Those seeing a change in CH, when others may not see a change in CH, can consider that there has always been the case that you and your mate might have the same CH at your club/course, but if you go to another course you could have a shot difference. This will continue to be a case/possibility when you transition to another course.
Introduction of CR-Par is a transitional change that will occur on one day.

Thanks.
I agree.

 

[Alan Clifford]

7. Course Handicap Adjustments will no longer be necessary for Mixed Tee competitions. (This is a benefit of the change).

Unless there is a difference in pars.

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Unless there is a difference in pars.

Thanks.
I'll also retract my statement that it was a benefit of CR-Par.

 

[NearHull]

Tractor Wheel

that is useful , I’m stealing it to help me explain impacts of the changes CH-Par to our members.

thank you

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Unless there is a difference in pars.

Thanks.
I'll also retract my statement that it was a benefit of CR-Par

Tractor Wheel

that is useful , I’m stealing it to help me explain impacts of the changes CH-Par to our members.

thank you

I don't claim it's complete.
The aim was to determine what we should be told.

 

[NearHull]

Thanks.
I'll also retract my statement that it was a benefit of CR-Par

I don't claim it's complete.
The aim was to determine what we should be told.

Yes, I understand there are caveats- we’ve yet to hear the briefings from our County, but your summary is a good start.

 

[doublebogey7]

Unless there is a difference in pars.

Unless results are published in relation to par. I doubt ISV's will be changing their systems to enable this, but it is possible and the most sensible thing to do in my opinion.

 

[Tractor Wheal]

Unless results are published in relation to par. I doubt ISV's will be changing their systems to enable this, but it is possible and the most sensible thing to do in my opinion.

That's an interesting point.
Do you/anybody know what happens outside GB&I?

 

[Crow]

Sorry if TLTR. I have attempted to list the impacts of CR-par to get my head around making sure my issues are covered when we eventually get the briefings. Anything incorrect? Have I missed anything?

Player impact:
1. Every player's un-rounded CH will change by the same amount, namely CR-par.
2. Due to a) rounding, b) Slope and c) the decimal value of CR, a rule of thumb on how this impacts rounded CH will be that for each 0.1 that CR varies from Par approximately:

• Slope 102. One in eleven players will see a CH change.
• Slope 113. One in ten will see a CH change.
• Slope 125. One in nine will see a CH change.
• Slope 141. One in eight will see a CH change.
• For example: Slope 141, Par 72, CR 72.3. 3/8ths should have an increase of 1 in CH.
• For example: Slope125, Par 72, CR 70.9. Everyone will have a reduction in CH. 1/9th should be reduced by 2.

3. The HI level that dictates Divisions, Eligibility etc will also move in line with the above. The greater the difference between CR & Par will reflect in a larger movement. This impacts all formats of play.
4. Therefore the HI level that dictates at which point the 95% Handicap Allowance effects PH will change. Again, the size of that change will be driven by the difference between CR & Par.
5. Achieving 36 Stableford points (or nett Par) against CH will always approximately equal playing to Handicap. (Some will see this as a benefit of the change. I don't).
6. As a player's CH changes up or down, then the point that NDB occurs will also move. Relative to other players at that course, the change up/down stays the same.
7. Course Handicap Adjustments will no longer be necessary for Mixed Tee competitions. (This is a benefit of the change).
8. Other than the NDB above, there is zero change as to how SD will be calculated as a result of CR-Par. This change will therefore not materially impact anyones HI.
9. When we play in most countries outside GB&I the calculation for a CH will be consistent. (This is potentially a benefit of the change but impacts approximately 0.1% of rounds).

Club admin impact:
10. Update members on the above.
11. Handicap Boards, websites etc, require updating.
12. Terms of Competition need review/update to reflect HI eligibility alterations.
13. Confirm the ISV has the changes in hand. (On the 1st April, a Bank Holiday, as usual we currently have a mixed-tee, mixed-gender Greensomes scheduled. What could go wrong).

In readiness for the members briefing, some things unaffected by CR-Par (unless of course you don't believe them):
14. Higher handicaps will still be advantaged by WHS in matches/competitions.
15. Handicap increases will continue to happen too quickly.
16. The PCC will still be a nonsense.
17. The USGA Course Rating System (tm) will maintain the same flaws.
18. 54 Handicap Indexes, unrestricted Casual Rounds and mandated Handicap Allowances are all still daft.
19. There is no let up on the additional burden caused by WHS on Handicap Secretaries.
20. The WHS will continue to allow for cultural differences in how golf is played around the world as long as you are American.

No need to apologise, I never got past trying to work out what TLTR was so couldn't be bothered to even start reading the rest.

 

[Voyager EMH]

TLTR is The Lazy Typist's Reduction for Too Long To Read.

 

[Alan Clifford]

That's an interesting point.
Do you/anybody know what happens outside GB&I?

Playing handicap is adjusted by difference in pars, depending on the format of the compettiton. Rule 6.2b Calculation When Multiple Tees with Different Pars Are Used in a Competition.

 

[Captain_Black.]

Whatever the arguments & merits of WHS & any future amendments, I fear for the future & integrity of our game.
For some, maybe most? Alterations won't make any difference,xthey just go out & play with their mates & don't give a hoot about handicaps.

But, to serious golfers who work hard at their game & try to be the best they can & get as low as possible, I just feel for them.
England Golf are just kicking them in the nuts at every opportunity.
The introduction of the ridiculous 54 H/C pre WHS started the rot.
Then the introduction of the not fit for purpose WHS & now more tinkering that will not do anything to alleviate an already seriously skewed system.
I'm afraid the integrity of the game held so dearly by so many for so many years is gone forever & the blame for that lies squarely at the door of England Golf.

 

[Backsticks]

But, to serious golfers who work hard at their game & try to be the best they can & get as low as possible, I just feel for them.

Why and what do you feel for them? they can still work hard, try to be the best they can, and get as low as possible. Their game is unaffected by the 54 handicapper.
Their low number HI goal is still just as valid a goal. Kudos to the scratchman - PCC minutiae, 95% for a competition, CR-Par : all irrelevant to that goal.

 

[Backsticks]

Sorry if TLTR. I have attempted to list the impacts of CR-par to get my head around making sure my issues are covered when we eventually get the briefings.


In readiness for the members briefing, some things unaffected by CR-Par (unless of course you don't believe them):
14. Higher handicaps will still be advantaged by WHS in matches/competitions.
15. Handicap increases will continue to happen too quickly.
16. The PCC will still be a nonsense.
17. The USGA Course Rating System (tm) will maintain the same flaws.
18. 54 Handicap Indexes, unrestricted Casual Rounds and mandated Handicap Allowances are all still daft.
19. There is no let up on the additional burden caused by WHS on Handicap Secretaries.
20. The WHS will continue to allow for cultural differences in how golf is played around the world as long as you are American.

Those arent issues for a briefing. Those are all pushing a WHS critical agenda, and are not facts of the matter of WHS, nor the changes.

 

[NearHull]

Those arent issues for a briefing. Those are all pushing a WHS critical agenda, and are not facts of the matter of WHS, nor the changes.

In my comments of Tractor Wheel’s summary I was ignoring items 14-20. They are opinions not facts.

 

[D-S]

Unless there is a difference in pars.

We currently run weekly mixed tee Stablefords, par for men is the same off all tees but not for women - I believe there wouldn’t be an additional PH adjustment (if CR-Par is in place for CH calculation) to compensate for the par difference - or have I got this wrong?