Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
The majority of golfers are traditionalists.....
Advantages for the flag being left in / out ?
- Thread starter Bamberdele2.0
- Start date
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Of course. Personally this video just reinforces that I'm fine leaving it in - which I've mostly done for speed/laziness rather than any perceived advantage.
Crow
Crow Person
That test looks thorough but it leaves one big question; where on the flagstick was the off centre strike hitting?
There aren't just centre and off-centre strikes, there are an infinite number of off-centre strikes and this test appears to only have done one, and I'd guess that it's one to favour their argument.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that a putt going 6 feet or more past the hole has more chance of going in if the flagstick is in, and most people leave the flagstick in when putting from long range anyway, but when you're closer and unlikely to smash the ball 6 feet or more past then I'd be wanting the flag out.
I've had too many putts that look like they'd have dropped but clip the flag and stay out.
And I'd sooner go on the example of the professional game where putts count for a lot more than mine, and the huge majority have the flag out from medium to close range, why on occasions some even ask for it to be tended!
There aren't just centre and off-centre strikes, there are an infinite number of off-centre strikes and this test appears to only have done one, and I'd guess that it's one to favour their argument.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that a putt going 6 feet or more past the hole has more chance of going in if the flagstick is in, and most people leave the flagstick in when putting from long range anyway, but when you're closer and unlikely to smash the ball 6 feet or more past then I'd be wanting the flag out.
I've had too many putts that look like they'd have dropped but clip the flag and stay out.
And I'd sooner go on the example of the professional game where putts count for a lot more than mine, and the huge majority have the flag out from medium to close range, why on occasions some even ask for it to be tended!
Mandofred
Well-known member
I like the flag in, but as has mentioned before......if all clubs bought the skinny at the bottom flag stick I would tend to think even most of the die hard "take it out" crew would likely start leaving it in. Heading to Moor Allerton again tomorrow.....nice skinny bottoms on their flags. I get the benefit (in my opinion) of having the flag stick help with alignment and distance....and the size of the flag stick keeping balls out becomes a non-issue.
Beezerk
Money List Winner
Flag in always for me unless it's windy and the flag is leaning towards me.
For some reason I find leaving the flag in helps me focus on the hole better.
For some reason I find leaving the flag in helps me focus on the hole better.
Springveldt
Well-known member
I sent this video to our Whatsapp group last week as well. Most have been leaving the flag in now on longer putts but still like it out on short putts.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I’ve reverted to ‘always out’ other than for the longest putts when it gets harder to see the hole. I think that any form of empirical statistical analysis - such as that in the video posted - is always going to struggle to accommodate a player’s (mental) perception of the hole. For me…I have come to realise that I like to see the whole of the hole, ‘unsullied‘ by a flagstick. My choice has nothing at all to do with whether any putt I hit is more likely to go in were I to leave the pin in, much more to do with how I see the hole and so see the putt.
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Orikoru
Tour Winner
My sneaking suspicion is that a putt that touches the flag and stays out probably would have lipped out anyway without the flag, i.e. it makes little difference if your putt is too quick and doesn't catch enough of the hole. Excepting circumstances would be if the flag is leaning in that particular direction of course.That test looks thorough but it leaves one big question; where on the flagstick was the off centre strike hitting?
There aren't just centre and off-centre strikes, there are an infinite number of off-centre strikes and this test appears to only have done one, and I'd guess that it's one to favour their argument.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that a putt going 6 feet or more past the hole has more chance of going in if the flagstick is in, and most people leave the flagstick in when putting from long range anyway, but when you're closer and unlikely to smash the ball 6 feet or more past then I'd be wanting the flag out.
I've had too many putts that look like they'd have dropped but clip the flag and stay out.
And I'd sooner go on the example of the professional game where putts count for a lot more than mine, and the huge majority have the flag out from medium to close range, why on occasions some even ask for it to be tended!
I think for the pros they just hate change to be honest. Their brain is conditioned from hitting thousands of putts into a flagless hole so they can't deviate from it. True for a lot of amateurs as well of course.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Must admit I've started thinking that way as well, although I've come at it the other way. Have mostly left the flag in from all distances the last few years, but for short ones that I feel I should hole I sometimes remove the flag just to remove any doubt.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Been leaving the flag in since the rule change permitted it and will continue that way until a rule changes to prevent it
Its even in for the short putts with the wind seriously bending the flagstick towards the line of putt, its fine, it'll still go in.
Even 'in' for the putts with the sun casting a strong shadow from the stick directly onto the line of the putt, its fine it'll still go in.
Even 'in' for the shortish putts with a shadow of the stick on the line of putt and a shadow of a fluttering flag on the line of putt and the noise of a flapping flag, its fine. it'll still go in... and when it doesn't go in... the ball wasn't diverted by a stick or a shadow or the sound of a flapping flag, it just wasn't a good enough putt
I also leave the 'flagstick' in 100% of the time on the practice green too (so do most players it seems, even the guys that want the stick out when on the course, which is weird)
Its even in for the short putts with the wind seriously bending the flagstick towards the line of putt, its fine, it'll still go in.
Even 'in' for the putts with the sun casting a strong shadow from the stick directly onto the line of the putt, its fine it'll still go in.
Even 'in' for the shortish putts with a shadow of the stick on the line of putt and a shadow of a fluttering flag on the line of putt and the noise of a flapping flag, its fine. it'll still go in... and when it doesn't go in... the ball wasn't diverted by a stick or a shadow or the sound of a flapping flag, it just wasn't a good enough putt
I also leave the 'flagstick' in 100% of the time on the practice green too (so do most players it seems, even the guys that want the stick out when on the course, which is weird)
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
We get quite a bit of damage to one side of the holes on windy days. I can only presume this is from the ball being pressed against side of the hole by the flagstick.
rulefan
Tour Winner
If the ball is being 'pressed' by the flagstick it will be in the hole. The ball will be contact with the liner not the earth.
D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
I had to wear my specs on Saturday as I had a burst blood vessel in my eye, making contacts very uncomfortable.
I found it easier to line up putts with the flag in than out. Normally I don't care if it's in or out, and don't think it makes any difference to me lining putts up.
I found it easier to line up putts with the flag in than out. Normally I don't care if it's in or out, and don't think it makes any difference to me lining putts up.
Crow
Crow Person
Pro thinks - "Hmm, there might be something in this flag in business. But hey, I'm used to having the flag out so I'll forget about all the extra money, championships and glory I might win and carry on with the flag out"
Yes, that makes sense.
Crow
Crow Person
Why is it weird? On the practice green your putt doesn't count for a score or win you a hole.
And I've seen lots of players taking the flag out on the practice green, and strangely enough they're often (but not always!) the better players.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Pro thinks - "Hmm, there might be something in this flag in business. But hey, I'm used to having the flag out so I'll forget about all the extra money, championships and glory I might win and carry on with the flag out"
Yes, that makes sense.
Isn't it that they must believe the opposite to be true (because the flagstick was already in the hole when they got there) i.e there's definitely an advantage in having the flagstick taken out so that's what I'll do
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Its weird that (some) don't practice what they will do on the course, of course
I also practice putting through my own shadow because that's a condition that will exist on the course so why wouldn't I. So if I intend to take the stick out for most putts on the course why wouldn't my practice putting be the same way
Crow
Crow Person
The practice green is used by many players and even when the flag wasn't allowed to be left in there were small flagsticks in the holes.
The reason for these is that they generally have plates on the bottom that allow the player to quickly lift their ball or balls out of the hole by lifting the flagstick out.
If I wanted to practice with the flag out then I'd in effect be monopolising that particular hole, fine if the practice green is quiet but when there are several players on it then that's a bit selfish.
Mandofred
Well-known member
It's safer to ride a bicycle with a helmet on. It's safer to ride a motorcycle with a helmet on. Makes sense that it would also be safer to wear a helmet while driving your car....so why doesn't everybody wear a helmet while driving?......they don't want to.Pro thinks - "Hmm, there might be something in this flag in business. But hey, I'm used to having the flag out so I'll forget about all the extra money, championships and glory I might win and carry on with the flag out"
Yes, that makes sense.
That I know of.....most studies have shown that it is better to leave the flag stick in......ignoring that advice makes no sense unless you just don't believe any of the studies are true.
Crow
Crow Person
It all comes down to the pace of the putt.
On mid to short length putts where we have better pace control I think leaving the flagstick in is a disadvantage, as do most Pros it would seem.
As for studies, I don't believe those that categorically state that it's best to leave the flag in.
It's a personal choice, I've made my choice and you've made yours, which is why I assume you've brought helmets into the conversation even though it seems a strange thing to do.
