Advantages for the flag being left in / out ?

SwingsitlikeHogan

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It's safer to ride a bicycle with a helmet on. It's safer to ride a motorcycle with a helmet on. Makes sense that it would also be safer to wear a helmet while driving your car....so why doesn't everybody wear a helmet while driving?......they don't want to.

That I know of.....most studies have shown that it is better to leave the flag stick in......ignoring that advice makes no sense unless you just don't believe any of the studies are true.
Yes but what studies look beyond the mechanics of what happens when a ball reaches the hole. Everything seems to be on the mechanics and possible interaction between ball, hole and flagstick.

My assertion is nothing to do with that, it’s to do with a player‘s possibly quite different mental perception of the hole when it has the flag in and when the flag is out. This could well change the player’s thinking about the putt, and so could well be changing the probability of the putt being holed before the ball is even hit.

My golfing head likes to see the whole hole, and nothing but the hole. I don’t have to concern myself with the flagstick, just on getting line and weight sorted.
 

Orikoru

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Pro thinks - "Hmm, there might be something in this flag in business. But hey, I'm used to having the flag out so I'll forget about all the extra money, championships and glory I might win and carry on with the flag out"

Yes, that makes sense. ;)
The point was they are creatures of habit, if taking it out makes it look alien to them they might feel it puts them off.
 

upsidedown

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Played at Bromborough last week which has slopey greens and the one guy insisted on the flag out. His reasoning is that we subconsciously aim for the flagstick when it's in the centre of the hole even when we think due to the borrow the aimpoint is outside of the hole , he did hole a lot of putts
 

Springveldt

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I also leave the 'flagstick' in 100% of the time on the practice green too (so do most players it seems, even the guys that want the stick out when on the course, which is weird)
It's strange as I do this as well. On the putting green I leave the flags in and I actually like the sound of the ball clonking on them as it goes in. I try to make sure all my putts hit the flag with a bit of speed from about 8 foot and in.

Out on the course for some reason (probably a mental thing) it felt like I was trying to miss the flag on short putts, the ball was always going in one side never really hitting the flag so I went back to taking the flag out on putts from around 10 foot and in.

This game will mess with your mind.
 

Mandofred

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Yes but what studies look beyond the mechanics of what happens when a ball reaches the hole. Everything seems to be on the mechanics and possible interaction between ball, hole and flagstick.

My assertion is nothing to do with that, it’s to do with a player‘s possibly quite different mental perception of the hole when it has the flag in and when the flag is out. This could well change the player’s thinking about the putt, and so could well be changing the probability of the putt being holed before the ball is even hit.

My golfing head likes to see the whole hole, and nothing but the hole. I don’t have to concern myself with the flagstick, just on getting line and weight sorted.
This is my point. A person takes the flag in or out not based necessarily on facts....but on what their brain is most comfortable with.
 

Mandofred

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It all comes down to the pace of the putt.
On mid to short length putts where we have better pace control I think leaving the flagstick in is a disadvantage, as do most Pros it would seem.

As for studies, I don't believe those that categorically state that it's best to leave the flag in.

It's a personal choice, I've made my choice and you've made yours, which is why I assume you've brought helmets into the conversation even though it seems a strange thing to do.
I brought helmets into it as an example of something that is true, yet people just won't do it. You could easily think of various examples.......like why don't people use their turn signals, it's really really easy to do...but lots of people just can't be bothered. It sure makes sense to use your turn signals.......

I don't care whether you leave the flag in or not. I do care (for some stupid reason) that some people look around desperately searching for a reason to justify their behavior. You don't have to justify it.....if you like the flag out you have every right to take it out...that's all the justification you need. I prefer to leave it in, from inside 10 feet I don't care much but if nothing else I'm just too lazy to go through the hassle (it's not much hassle) of taking the flag out.

We were behind a 3 man group of seniors yesterday playing a 9 hole comp. They always took the flag out......and I swear they must have 3+4 putted on each hole. It's habit. They have the right to do it though and I'll stand up for their right to do so.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Though tbh I could do with less often hearing on the 1st green a comment from a player along the lines of '...I can't be bothered with this Flag In/Flag Out faffing about'. Hopefully as more of us revert to having the flag out most, if not all, of the time it will be obvious to all that there is no default/better way and so it becomes inappropriate and poor etiquette to make such comments.
 

Mandofred

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Though tbh I could do with less often hearing on the 1st green a comment from a player along the lines of '...I can't be bothered with this Flag In/Flag Out faffing about'. Hopefully as more of us revert to having the flag out most, if not all, of the time it will be obvious to all that there is no default/better way and so it becomes inappropriate and poor etiquette to make such comments.
Oh jeez. Making a comment about the flag is concidered inappropriate and poor etiquette? What other things are you going to cross off the list of things people can talk about?
 

Crow

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I brought helmets into it as an example of something that is true, yet people just won't do it. You could easily think of various examples.......like why don't people use their turn signals, it's really really easy to do...but lots of people just can't be bothered. It sure makes sense to use your turn signals.......

I don't care whether you leave the flag in or not. I do care (for some stupid reason) that some people look around desperately searching for a reason to justify their behavior. You don't have to justify it.....if you like the flag out you have every right to take it out...that's all the justification you need. I prefer to leave it in, from inside 10 feet I don't care much but if nothing else I'm just too lazy to go through the hassle (it's not much hassle) of taking the flag out.

We were behind a 3 man group of seniors yesterday playing a 9 hole comp. They always took the flag out......and I swear they must have 3+4 putted on each hole. It's habit. They have the right to do it though and I'll stand up for their right to do so.

Take a look at the title of the thread, might explain why people are discussing it in the way they are.
 

Mandofred

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Take a look at the title of the thread, might explain why people are discussing it in the way they are.
And your accurate conclusion is..........?

I'm kind of curious though.....would you still want the flag out if it was one of the skinny bottom flags? Serious. The flag in doesn't bother me, it does you....I'm ok with that. But would it make any difference to you if the flag were skinny?
 

Crow

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And your accurate conclusion is..........?

I'm kind of curious though.....would you still want the flag out if it was one of the skinny bottom flags? Serious. The flag in doesn't bother me, it does you....I'm ok with that. But would it make any difference to you if the flag were skinny?

I'm a pretty easy going type, I tend to default to whatever my playing partners want to do, the flag being in doesn't overly bother me but as I said, the thread was about advantages one way or the other. I think this also chimes with SwingsitlikeHogan's comment that the "flag-inners" can be quite strident in their views about it being a waste of time to take the flag out, which presses their view on the "flag-outers", and I agree with SLH that this isn't great etiquette.

But if asked I'll have the flag out, I prefer to see the whole hole, and I've had quite a few occasions where I'm sure that the ball would have dropped if the flag hadn't been in.

I have very limited experience of skinny flagsticks so can't really comment on their effectiveness but I'd still sooner see the hole than a flagstick, I like to picture my golf ball hitting the back of the hole when I'm in close.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Oh jeez. Making a comment about the flag is concidered inappropriate and poor etiquette? What other things are you going to cross off the list of things people can talk about?
Yes it is.. If a player makes such a comment when there may be only one player in a group playing with it out, then that comment puts pressure on that player to go along with the wishes of the others, or at least the player making the comment, when it is none of his business. So yes. The comment is inappropriate and so in my eyes poor etiquette.
 

Mandofred

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Yes it is.. If a player makes such a comment when there may be only one player in a group playing with it out, then that comment puts pressure on that player to go along with the wishes of the others, or at least the player making the comment, when it is none of his business. So yes. The comment is inappropriate and so in my eyes poor etiquette.
One of those " agree to disagree" situations I guess. Seems you are looking for a reason to be insulted. When I play with the Saturday swindle group, a LOT of those guys prefer the flag out. Since I like the flag in they have at times said "let Fred putt out first" so that they can just take the flag out the one time....makes sense to me.....but I could be insulted by it if I were looking for a reason to be insulted. Golfers can be soooo easily insulted.
 

cliveb

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....but I could be insulted by it if I were looking for a reason to be insulted. Golfers can be soooo easily insulted.
Hey, get with the times.
It's everyone's duty to be insulted by pretty much everything, even if only on someone else's behalf.
 

Mandofred

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Hey, get with the times.
It's everyone's duty to be insulted by pretty much everything, even if only on someone else's behalf.
Somehow......I feel I should be insulted by this comment.....I'll find a way;);)

Just listening to Talk Radio on the way home from golf today......on BritBox they are evidently putting warning signs before the comedy shows about people possibly being insulted by these shows.....Any Fools and Horses, The Good Life etc etc. The world is looking for reasons to be insulted......
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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One of those " agree to disagree" situations I guess. Seems you are looking for a reason to be insulted. When I play with the Saturday swindle group, a LOT of those guys prefer the flag out. Since I like the flag in they have at times said "let Fred putt out first" so that they can just take the flag out the one time....makes sense to me.....but I could be insulted by it if I were looking for a reason to be insulted. Golfers can be soooo easily insulted.
I'm not looking to be insulted whatsoever, and in fact I'm not insulted when it happens. I have no idea why you think I might be. It's just etiquette.

I just think the flag-inners, as Crow has called them, shouldn't start whinging and going on about flag 'hokey-cokey'. It's totally unnecessary, however fortunately my more recent experience is that there are far fewer such comments being made - though some still exhibit a somewhat grudging reluctance to take flag out if and when asked.
 
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