A question about course rating

[sweaty sock]

I agree I don't think it's a silly question, Courses are rated based on a scratch golfer and 'Bogey' golfer, If Mens and Ladies handicaps were based on the same standard, then a Player who goes round in scratch would hit about the same distance regardless of gender and the same for a 18 handicapper, I can't see how a female golfer could go round in the same scores of 90 or under as a male without hitting roughly the same distances. The only difference is maybe is max of say 60 handicap for female, but would a 54+ handicapper really play of the Whites or Yellows when the Reds would be nearer their ability

So in effect a 10 second change to how womens handicaps are calculated and every course in the world is rated? Well maybe not actually, as i dont think our reds are rated for the men!

 

[Foxholer]

So in effect a 10 second change to how womens handicaps are calculated and every course in the world is rated? Well maybe not actually, as i dont think our reds are rated for the men!

In effect, that is what rating (at least some of the) Mens tees for Ladies does - while accepting the situation that most Ladies are 'happy' playing from their own set of tees. The reluctance of (some/many) Senior men to play from Reds simply reflects how egos can get in the way of logic.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!

 

[Backache]

I agree I don't think it's a silly question, Courses are rated based on a scratch golfer and 'Bogey' golfer, If Mens and Ladies handicaps were based on the same standard, then a Player who goes round in scratch would hit about the same distance regardless of gender and the same for a 18 handicapper, I can't see how a female golfer could go round in the same scores of 90 or under as a male without hitting roughly the same distances. The only difference is maybe is max of say 60 handicap for female, but would a 54+ handicapper really play of the Whites or Yellows when the Reds would be nearer their ability

Men and women scratch golfers do not hit it the same distance.
Both par and the old standard scratch score have always been different.
This is almost certainly reasonable, If you were to take the top 1% of golfers for both sexes and at amateur level that is roughly what is scratch the women would on average hit it shorter, and that is true at each centile.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Men and women scratch golfers do not hit it the same distance.
Both par and the old standard scratch score have always been different.
This is almost certainly reasonable, If you were to take the top 1% of golfers for both sexes and at amateur level that is roughly what is scratch the women would on average hit it shorter, and that is true at each centile.

That's because a Women scratch golfer is about a 5 or 6 handicap

 

[patricks148]

We are Scotland but all but our black tees are rated for women. So if SG are doing it I can't see EG can't?

 

[YandaB]

When you rate the longer courses for women, have you then sunsequently had to adjust the Par for the holes that move from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 based on the recommendations? Does that then lead to changes to the Stroke Indexes (both if you already have 2)? Does this then further lead to such a complicated score card that you end up with one for Ladies and one for Gentlemen?
Edit, This also applies to the men being rated for the forward tees where there is a reduction in Par and some par fives (all actually) become par 4s.

 

[rulefan]

When you rate the longer courses for women, have you then sunsequently had to adjust the Par for the holes that move from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5 based on the recommendations? Does that then lead to changes to the Stroke Indexes (both if you already have 2)? Does this then further lead to such a complicated score card that you end up with one for Ladies and one for Gentlemen?
Edit, This also applies to the men being rated for the forward tees where there is a reduction in Par and some par fives (all actually) become par 4s.

Why does it matter. Par is simply an arbitrary number. All par #s overlap anyway.

 

[YandaB]

Why does it matter. Par is simply an arbitrary number. All par #s overlap anyway.

For handicapping it matters when people only play 9 holes (or miss any holes for that matter) and also net double bogey changes. Whilst there is overlap (and the lengths are only reccommendations), the changes on some holes do take them out of one band and into another (30 yards less than the lowest end of the range in some cases). This will take them from one triad to another in the SI allocation process which looks at the difficulty of holes relative to par.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!

Well we have our new rating and no visit made. They are now live on the EG system but we are still working through the implications for competitions / cards / handicap tables before putting them on Club V1.

Interestingly (but not surprisingly they have changed the par for women playing off yellows (6165 yds) +1 shot and -3 shots for men playing off red.

This matters not a jot for handicap purposes but is a pain for scorecard design / admin if we choose to try to integrate them.

 

[clubchamp98]

Well I've just been informed our request for rating Red tees for men and yellow tees for women has been approved by EG (without a rating visit) so I await the addition course / slope rating with interest!

Guy told me yesterday our course had not been visited for rating.
So how do they work it out.
Played a local course last week with a slope of 129 the same as ours.
It was so much easier than my course flat as a fluke with no water at all.
Most feel our is way to low for the difficulty.
He also said over half the courses in the country have not had a visit to rate them as there is a shortage of rating staff. Is this true anyone know.?

 

[wjemather]

Guy told me yesterday our course had not been visited for rating.
So how do they work it out.
Played a local course last week with a slope of 129 the same as ours.
It was so much easier than my course flat as a fluke with no water at all.
Most feel our is way to low for the difficulty.
He also said over half the courses in the country have not had a visit to rate them as there is a shortage of rating staff. Is this true anyone know.?

Firstly, Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a bogey (~20 handicap) golfer versus a scratch golfer.

All courses will have been visited for rating. However, some additional rating (such as rating yellow for women and red for men) has been done recently without visits, pending a visit for full rating within a few years. Most counties completed a full cycle of ratings in a short period in the run up to WHS as so did not have any scheduled for a few years and may have felt it unnecessary to maintain a full rating team.

 

[rulefan]

Interestingly (but not surprisingly they have changed the par for women playing off yellows (6165 yds) +1 shot and -3 shots for men playing off red.

Setting par is not part of the normal rating process. It is a club's function. Do you mean Par or Course Rating?
How many holes have they changed? Can you give a couple of examples?

 

[wjemather]

Setting par is not part of the normal rating process. It is a club's function. Do you mean Par or Course Rating?
How many holes have they changed? Can you give a couple of examples?

When a new set of tees is rated, or an existing set is rated for a different gender (as I understand, this is the scenario Mike describing), if not given explicit instruction, some raters will assign pars based on yardages rather than copying them from the closest existing rated set of tees for that gender (or even asking the club). We had this with our winter tees for women, but they were quickly adjusted on request.

 

[clubchamp98]

Firstly, Slope is not a measure of absolute difficulty - that is the Course Rating. Slope is a measure of the relative difficulty for a bogey (~20 handicap) golfer versus a scratch golfer.

All courses will have been visited for rating. However, some additional rating (such as rating yellow for women and red for men) has been done recently without visits, pending a visit for full rating within a few years. Most counties completed a full cycle of ratings in a short period in the run up to WHS as so did not have any scheduled for a few years and may have felt it unnecessary to maintain a full rating team.

He quite clearly told us the course had not been visited by raters
I will ask him at the weekend.

 

[rulefan]

When a new set of tees is rated, or an existing set is rated for a different gender (as I understand, this is the scenario Mike describing), if not given explicit instruction, some raters will assign pars based on yardages rather than copying them from the closest existing rated set of tees for that gender (or even asking the club). We had this with our winter tees for women, but they were quickly adjusted on request.

To the best of my knowledge there is no provision in the rating procedure for setting or recommending pars. At least there wasn't when I was the county rating manager. I can't seen any reference to par in my copy of the rating manual.

 

[rulefan]

He quite clearly told us the course had not been visited by raters
I will ask him at the weekend.

In some counties not all courses have had a full formal rating yet but have been given a temporary rating based primarily on length.

 

[wjemather]

To the best of my knowledge there is no provision in the rating procedure for setting or recommending pars. At least there wasn't when I was the county rating manager. I can't seen any reference to par in my copy of the rating manual.

I can't say why they are doing it rather than consulting the club (who should have provided the information in advance), but it's clearly happening in more than one county.

 

[rulefan]

I can't say why they are doing it rather than consulting the club (who should have provided the information in advance), but it's clearly happening in more than one county.

Where (ie on what paperwork) and how do they communicate this change of par to the club?

 

[wjemather]

Where (ie on what paperwork) and how do they communicate this change of par to the club?

I don't seem to have a copy but if I remember correctly, our club manager was notified of the new ratings by email, which included the par for the course, which we then queried and requested changing.