WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[Swango1980]

I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.

 

[2blue]

I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.

We're working very similarly to this...... allowing 2 requests for the return of their card or explanation. We reiterate the requirements/responsibilities & remind them that we are required to issue a Penalty score should these be ignored, as an image of the card/explanation of the problems encountered, can be sent to a generic email address.
Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1 ....... not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension....... too soon for that yet, we feel?

 

[rulefan]

We're working very similarly to this...... allowing 2 requests for the return of their card or explanation. We reiterate the requirements/responsibilities & remind them that we are required to issue a Penalty score should these be ignored, as an image of the card/explanation of the problems encountered, can be sent to a generic email address.
Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1 ....... not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension....... too soon for that yet, we feel?

Penalize him with a number of strokes Penalty Score
See Definition and 7.1b penultimate bullet

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I had the headache today of going through Club V1 to check who pre-registered just before score entry, or look for no returns for general play rounds.

Not sure what other clubs are going to do to manage this. However, I decided to set up a spreadsheet, each tab represents an individual member. I create a new one any time I detect an issue. I will then put the date of their score, type in their hole scores (if they submitted them) and write a note as to what the problem was, either pre-registration issue or a no return.

If they pre-registered just before score entry, I delete the score

If they do not return, I will e-mail them asking for their score (or enter a penalty score if they do not have it, unless there is a good reason they did not return score). I will use this e-mail to explain the importance of returning scores once pre-registered. I will then have a log that will easily help me identify players who may do this regularly, and then we can discuss various club policies on what action may need to be taken.

I may or may not increase this by keeping a record of all physical cards sent in, or whether they were sent in via e-mail / whatsapp / text, etc. Not sure yet, but it may be a good way to keep a detailed log of what I have received from various sources, and then I do not need to keep physical cards in case anyone comes asking to audit the club.

Yep - me too!

Spreadsheet is by month and I copy all GP rounds into the relevant month tab. Split into 2 parts - completed rounds (there is no standard report to give this yet) and errors. I track the errors and if there is no good reason why a round has not been completed / submitted they go into a tab called Naughty Step. This is where we track how many strikes an individual member has before formal sanction. By retaining the details we have the evidence needed if challenged.

The current gaping hole is MyEG app General Play scores (home or Away) which don't show up on Club V1.

 

[Swango1980]

Yep - me too!

Spreadsheet is by month and I copy all GP rounds into the relevant month tab. Split into 2 parts - completed rounds (there is no standard report to give this yet) and errors. I track the errors and if there is no good reason why a round has not been completed / submitted they go into a tab called Naughty Step. This is where we track how many strikes an individual member has before formal sanction. By retaining the details we have the evidence needed if challenged.

The current gaping hole is MyEG app General Play scores (home or Away) which don't show up on Club V1.

You'll need to go on the WHS Platform as well, to check scores that haven't been submitted. It is a pity everything wasn't just shown in one piece of software.

 

[upsidedown]

This might pop up in the future for you all as it has happened to me . If you've played two rounds on a single day with one of them being a counting one and they are your 21st and 20th scores the better score will count and even if it's your 21st will still be used for index calculation until you play another round . Had this confirmed from Gemma Hunter at WHS today . Happy to PM her reply .

 

[mikejohnchapman]

You'll need to go on the WHS Platform as well, to check scores that haven't been submitted. It is a pity everything wasn't just shown in one piece of software.

I can see rounds not submitted for GP on the Club V1 Casual Rounds report - use that to chase missing scores. On the platform the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intents" give me any away or home MyEG app loaded rounds that are in error but there is nothing to show just GP rounds. The Daily Score reports gives no analysis by type (Comp, Away, GP, etc)

 

[Old Skier]

I can see rounds not submitted for GP on the Club V1 Casual Rounds report - use that to chase missing scores. On the platform the snappily named "Unsatisfied Score Intents" give me any away or home MyEG app loaded rounds that are in error but there is nothing to show just GP rounds. The Daily Score reports gives no analysis by type (Comp, Away, GP, etc)

On the WHS DB Reports section, doesn't scores Listed by Day include casual rounds, unfortunately it will also include comp rounds.

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks for that rulefan - so it begs the question , what are most clubs doing?

Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one. To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores may be used not scores must be used.

 

[jim8flog]

I'm sure that this has been asked before but there so many questions on WHS I just am asking to save loads of looking back

Our Captains newsletter is talking about scores in club swindles being needing to be entered. Like most swindles they rarely hole out so, in that case, are they bound to put scores in or will swindles be required to amend their gimmee's and hole out?

This reminds me of when CONGU brought in the requirement that swindle scores must be taken in to consideration at the Annual Review. I spoke to several organisers - some did not even keep records and some flat out refused to give me the records unless every single swindle (and we have a lot) were made to do the same.

 

[jim8flog]

Despite all this, we are just about to have to issue our first Penalty Score to one of our, for many years, erratic returners of cards, however, the Penalty of a Net-Par score will in fact give him a H/cap increase of 0.1 ....... not what we are wanting.
What's the alternative to this, other than a H/cap suspension....... too soon for that yet, we feel?

Surely teh reason for the player not returning thecard is because it ws not a good round and and such score submitted would give him a change to to his Handicap . Is he in fact Handicapping protecting by avoiding increases.

As per Rulefan rule 7 is your friend. Specifically
l If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score
for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider
withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate
penalty score (high or low depending on intent).

there is also a flow chart to follow.

 

[Old Skier]

Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one. To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores may be used not scores must be used.

This

 

[wjemather]

Where I play if you play in a swindle and want it count you preregister the round and play to the rules of golf. We are not insisting that swindles do so on a mandatory basis and fail to understands club that are making it so unless the swindle is a club organised one. To me it is a misinterpretation of The Rules of Handicapping which say scores may be used not scores must be used.

Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)

 

[Old Skier]

Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)

But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.

 

[wjemather]

But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.

Indeed. Most groups at our club that would otherwise be caught by the guidance exclude themselves by having gimmes or other variations of the rules.

 

[Old Skier]

Indeed. Most groups at our club that would otherwise be caught by the guidance exclude themselves by having gimmes or other variations of the rules.

But compromises can be made, their organisers have asked if I would mind setting up a comp on the last Friday of every month.

 

[jim8flog]

Except CONGU's guidance says the following, which has been reinforced to us by EG through the county:
"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs." G2.1a (1)

However that is surely trumped by

2.1b Played by the Rules of Golf
A round must be played by the Rules of Golf to be acceptable for handicap
purposes, subject to the following:

so if a swindle is using gimmes ..............

 

[jim8flog]

But the organised events must be played under the rules of golf. Our seniors Friday Club with restricted entry (I’m not one of the chosen) play gimmes and the OOB rule that clubs had the option to implement (which we didn’t) so although “organised” not subject to the CONGU rules.

For info
Gimmes does prevent it but using the OOB rule does not

Where a player follows the provisions set down in a Model Local Rule, even
when the Committee in charge of the course has not adopted that Model
Local Rule, the score may still be acceptable for handicap purposes. The
same situation applies where a player is in breach of a Model Local Rule that
has been adopted by the Committee.
Examples of situations relating to Model Local Rules where a score might be
acceptable for handicap purposes include:
l A player has proceeded under the alternative option to the stroke and
distance relief procedure, despite this Model Local Rule not being in effect,
or
l The player has used a distance-measuring device despite the Model Local
Rule prohibiting their use being in effect.
The final determination is at the discretion of the Committee, based on the
circumstances.

 

[IanMcC]

OK, so up until now I have been pretty much ignoring the score entry via apps thing. We are part of Wales Golf, and we are still not allowed into clubhouses. Hopefully that is changing on 17th May. Our PSI is inside the clubhouse. I did a health check on it the other day by creating a dummy comp, and all seems fine with it. I have been accepting comp scorecards via an outside letterbox. I tried the photograph route last Summer, which did not work out at all. Casual rounds have been pre-registered by email or text to me in the morning before tee off. This has all worked very well. Some members have been inputting comp scores via HDID, which is fine, so long as I can check the physical card if they are in contention. What I am really not sure of is people entering casual rounds via an app. I believe the England Golf app has this function, but the Wales Golf app does not. I could be wrong. I also think that people can (pre) register a casual round for handicap purposes via HDID, but again I am not sure. My main question is, how are these considered pre registered if the M&H committee do not receive prior notification? As a M&H Secretary, I need a crash course in entering scores via app, and how I can see and control them.

 

[Swango1980]

OK, so up until now I have been pretty much ignoring the score entry via apps thing. We are part of Wales Golf, and we are still not allowed into clubhouses. Hopefully that is changing on 17th May. Our PSI is inside the clubhouse. I did a health check on it the other day by creating a dummy comp, and all seems fine with it. I have been accepting comp scorecards via an outside letterbox. I tried the photograph route last Summer, which did not work out at all. Casual rounds have been pre-registered by email or text to me in the morning before tee off. This has all worked very well. Some members have been inputting comp scores via HDID, which is fine, so long as I can check the physical card if they are in contention. What I am really not sure of is people entering casual rounds via an app. I believe the England Golf app has this function, but the Wales Golf app does not. I could be wrong. I also think that people can (pre) register a casual round for handicap purposes via HDID, but again I am not sure. My main question is, how are these considered pre registered if the M&H committee do not receive prior notification? As a M&H Secretary, I need a crash course in entering scores via app, and how I can see and control them.

You can set Club V1 to allow general play rounds via the PSI and via howdidido. Players sign in on either to pre register, and enter score after. Sign in and score entry are time stamped on Club V1, I've had to delete several who have entered scores minutes after signing in.