WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

rosecott

Money List Winner
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
6,942
Location
Notts
There is no need to preregister. The H/C sec is allowed to treat these as being preregistered without the player having done so.
Guidance on the Rules of handicapping G2.1a(1) para 4
Thank you, I am aware of those rules.

My point is that I would then expect that all my 6 or so players should be returning scorecards - good or bad - and the same should apply to all the other clubs. I am in disagreement with the Alliance organisers over this and do not wish to post details but I am willing to PM any Secretary with those details.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
1,288
Our understanding of the PCC calculation was that for any given day, the PCC would be calculated at the end of the day, based solely on scores submitted that day (within the restrictions of what scores are allowed to contribute to the PCC). If no scores were submitted on that day then there would be no PCC calculation made. If a score was subsequently entered (e.g. on the following day) then because no PCC had been calculated for the previous day, no PCC adjustment would be applied to the score.

We had a strokeplay competition played yesterday. All scores for yesterdays competition were entered by a committee member this morning.

A PCC has been calculated for yesterdays competition and applied to players score differentials! This goes against my (and my handicap secretaries) understanding of how things were supposed to work. I can confirm that no other scores were entered yesterday that may have caused a PCC to have been made.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it something that the authorities have changed in "the background". Or is our understanding of how things work simply wrong?
 
Thread starter #883

Old Skier

Tour Winner
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
8,484
Location
Instow - play in North Devon
Thank you, I am aware of those rules.

My point is that I would then expect that all my 6 or so players should be returning scorecards - good or bad - and the same should apply to all the other clubs. I am in disagreement with the Alliance organisers over this and do not wish to post details but I am willing to PM any Secretary with those details.
Im with you, all or nobody. Alliance organiser should be of the same mind. I’d be interested in why he feels it should only apply to some. Love some background.
 

rosecott

Money List Winner
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
6,942
Location
Notts
Our understanding of the PCC calculation was that for any given day, the PCC would be calculated at the end of the day, based solely on scores submitted that day (within the restrictions of what scores are allowed to contribute to the PCC). If no scores were submitted on that day then there would be no PCC calculation made. If a score was subsequently entered (e.g. on the following day) then because no PCC had been calculated for the previous day, no PCC adjustment would be applied to the score.

We had a strokeplay competition played yesterday. All scores for yesterdays competition were entered by a committee member this morning.

A PCC has been calculated for yesterdays competition and applied to players score differentials! This goes against my (and my handicap secretaries) understanding of how things were supposed to work. I can confirm that no other scores were entered yesterday that may have caused a PCC to have been made.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it something that the authorities have changed in "the background". Or is our understanding of how things work simply wrong?
A note in the rule 5.6 interpretations:

The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,943
A note in the rule 5.6 interpretations:

The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date.
But that doesn't indicate what scores are used to calculate the PCC?

Did the question not suggest the PCC was calculated using scores entered a day late?
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,943
Yes, and the note covers that.
The note surely says that the PCC calculated on the day will be used on the scores entered late. It does not say the scores entered late will be used to change the PCC value?

So, the PCC for the day was zero. So, should zero not be used on the late scores?
 

rosecott

Money List Winner
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
6,942
Location
Notts
The note surely says that the PCC calculated on the day will be used on the scores entered late. It does not say the scores entered late will be used to change the PCC value?

So, the PCC for the day was zero. So, should zero not be used on the late scores?
No.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,943
So, let us say 40 scores were entered on the correct day, and the PCC came out at +3.

Then, another 20 scores, that were played on the day, were entered a day late. When you quoted "The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date" I interpreted that the PCC would also be +3 for those late scores.

Are you saying a different PCC could be used for those late scores, depending on what they come out as?
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
1,288
Must admit....my logic is the same as Swango's.

The note says..."The PCC is applied to all acceptable scores that are submitted on a day of play and retrospectively for scores played on that day but submitted at a later date."

So it is clear that the PCC may be applied retrospectively to scores submitted the following day. That was always my understanding. But the application of a PCC is dependent upon a PCC already having been calculated that will apply to late scores. Given that there were no scores submitted on the actual day (Friday) in question, then surely the PCC for Friday was zero. Therefore no adjustment should be made for the Friday scores submitted on Saturday.
 
Thread starter #892

Old Skier

Tour Winner
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
8,484
Location
Instow - play in North Devon
The guideline is

Guidance on the Rules G2.1a (1)

G2.1a (1) Authorized Formats of Play
The authorized formats of play that are acceptable for handicap purposes within GB&I are broadly the same as under the CONGU® system. Other countries in the world may have a narrower or wider range of acceptable formats.
Note: It is Ireland’s intention to trial the inclusion of some match play events into handicapping and to also include some Four Ball Better-Ball scores in situations where the returned scores are better than a target expectation for this format of play. Golf Ireland will issue details of these provisions in due course.
It is a requirement in GB&I that players pre-register on the day if they wish their scores to be used for handicapping purposes both for competitions and for General Play. Clubs will need to have procedures in place for this, and with increasing computerization of handicapping they may find that their software will have an inbuilt pre-registration facility.
WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll- ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs.
Page |8

In response to @rosecott problem I find this quite contradictory and could be taken several ways:

If things are broadly in line with the CONGU System did players in this comp previously hand in “Away” cards, I suspect not.

It also states that there is a requirement to pre register - can the fact that you ”sign up” and play in the Alliance count? If so then ALL cards must be taken into account.

“Players have a responsibility to ensure they return cards to home club” Then that means all players, not a selection.
 

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
8,746
Location
Yeovil
PCC Calculation

After yesterday I am wondering what it will take for the PCC to go up.

Yesterdays comp had 44 players (approx) (par 71 and rating 70.8) from memory of a quick scan last night one player had nett par, second place was nett 3 over with most of the field well over nett par lots of nett 80+s and no change to the in the PCC.
 

wjemather

Active member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
149
Location
Bristol
It seems that ClubV1 treats unreturned competition scores in the same way that it did under UHS, i.e. 18 net double-bogeys, and sends valid scores through to WHS. This obviously does not follow the WHS Rules of Handicapping. While I wait for an update from Club Systems, I was wondering if anyone else has reported this and what response they got.

Also, the DQ dropdown list is also still not functional - I reported this last November!
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
1,288
PCC Calculation

After yesterday I am wondering what it will take for the PCC to go up.

Yesterdays comp had 44 players (approx) (par 71 and rating 70.8) from memory of a quick scan last night one player had nett par, second place was nett 3 over with most of the field well over nett par lots of nett 80+s and no change to the in the PCC.
Blimey....our St'ford comp on Friday had 77 entrants winner had 41pts, runner up 40pts, 3rdplace 36pts, then everyone else was 35 or below. PCC was +2 !!!

According to the dot golf site the PCC was calculated based on 26 cards....which 26 cards it doesnt tell you....even allowing for the "rules" as to what cards are considered in the PCC calculation just looking at the cards returned I can see that significantly more cards should have been considered simply by taking into counting the number of cards where a gross score was entered on every hole.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
1,943
Just entered a general play round for a member, which was played 2 days ago, on Club V1. It now appears on their Club V1 Scoring Record, but says "No" for CDH Submitted. Their WHS Scoring History on the portal does not have this latest score in it yet.

Is this as issue? The reason I ask, is that when players have entered their scores on howdidido, it goes immediately to WHS and shows on their scoring history. WHS, next to their index, has in brackets what their index will be tomorrow once that score is taken into account. So, I was expecting the same for this player when I entered his score in Club V1. Tries to hit "Sync Handicap Details" in Club V1, but it just says No changes were found
 
Thread starter #898
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
8,484
Location
Instow - play in North Devon
Just entered a general play round for a member, which was played 2 days ago, on Club V1. It now appears on their Club V1 Scoring Record, but says "No" for CDH Submitted. Their WHS Scoring History on the portal does not have this latest score in it yet.

Is this as issue? The reason I ask, is that when players have entered their scores on howdidido, it goes immediately to WHS and shows on their scoring history. WHS, next to their index, has in brackets what their index will be tomorrow once that score is taken into account. So, I was expecting the same for this player when I entered his score in Club V1. Tries to hit "Sync Handicap Details" in Club V1, but it just says No changes were found
I would go to CLUB SYSTEMS support. Interesting to see what they see.
 

IanMcC

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2019
Messages
394
Can I ask how M&H Secretaries are dealing with people who have signed in for the comp but have not returned a scorecard? To close out the comp on ClubV1 you are asked to give these players a NR. This generates 18 net double bogies on their record, a thing we were requested to avoid. But how else can we register the fact that they did not return a card? Even if DQd for not returning a card in time, the outcome is the same.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
149
Location
Bristol
Can I ask how M&H Secretaries are dealing with people who have signed in for the comp but have not returned a scorecard? To close out the comp on ClubV1 you are asked to give these players a NR. This generates 18 net double bogies on their record, a thing we were requested to avoid. But how else can we register the fact that they did not return a card? Even if DQd for not returning a card in time, the outcome is the same.
Per my above post (#894), I have reported this to Club Systems but still haven't had a response.

Fortunately, we only had 3 failures to return from over 500 cards over the weekend. I simply removed their (incorrect) scores from the WHS Platform and followed up with them later.
 
Last edited:
Top