IanMcC
Well-known member
Many thanks. As you say, the shading in the UK book makes it mathematically incorrect. Makes perfect sense the way you have written it here.
WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)
- Thread starter Old Skier
- Start date
Swango1980
Well-known member
The abuse of WHS begins.
3 days ago, a single figure handicapper, who has never yet played to handicap in comps since joining, shot a nett 63 in a knock around. I've now been up to club today, and see he has entered it on howdidido as a General Play Round. He pre-registered 2 mins before entering score.
I've contacted him saying I'll have to delete this score. Is this correct?
At any rate, know he knows why, what is stopping anyone having a good round, registering and then entering score 3 hours later?
We had a comp.yesterday, so he was playing off the wrong handicap (although too low). What would happen if it was other way round, I had to delete a general play round, meaning his handicap was too high in comp (bearing in mind comp was yesterday and effectively closed)
3 days ago, a single figure handicapper, who has never yet played to handicap in comps since joining, shot a nett 63 in a knock around. I've now been up to club today, and see he has entered it on howdidido as a General Play Round. He pre-registered 2 mins before entering score.
I've contacted him saying I'll have to delete this score. Is this correct?
At any rate, know he knows why, what is stopping anyone having a good round, registering and then entering score 3 hours later?
We had a comp.yesterday, so he was playing off the wrong handicap (although too low). What would happen if it was other way round, I had to delete a general play round, meaning his handicap was too high in comp (bearing in mind comp was yesterday and effectively closed)
wjemather
Well-known member
Yes, the score should be deleted as it was not submitted within the rules of handicapping. It sounds like they are wilfully violating the rules of handicapping and need reminding of their responsibilities; it it continues, I'd consider withdrawing their Handicap Index.
If such behaviour resulted the wrong handicap in a comp (high or low, but especially high), I'd probably DQ since they are the cause. Maybe add something to the general competition terms for clarity.
I've requested an option in ClubV1 such that the Pro Shop can register intents and we can then not use PSI/howdidido as it is too open to manipulation such as you've described.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I had reported this to EG a short while ago.
IanMcC
Well-known member
Is there any logical reason why ClubV1 do not have the option to run a mixed 9 hole comp? Currently we have an 11 hole stableford comp on a Friday, open to ladies and gents. Come Spring when we have acceptable conditions again I would like to make this a 9 hole 'qualifier'. Currently I would have to set up 2 separate comps on ClubV1. Do other ISVs have a mixed 9 hole comp option? Also, I think I would need another HI to CH board, specifically for 9 hole comps. How do other clubs cope with this?
wjemather
Well-known member
No logical reason I can think of. It's one of many enhancement requests I have submitted as far as the competition templates goes. Hopefully it's on the list as we are trying to make most of our general comps open to all members.
We simply have CH tables (printed on heavy paper) relevant to the courses of the day posted in the pro shop and on noticeboards.
IanMcC
Well-known member
I wasn't sent an excel spreadsheet from Wales Golf for the 9 hole courses, unlike the 18 hole courses which were fully covered. The 9 hole conversion is a little more complex, as it involves par as well as course and slope ratings.
Have you worked these out yourself? Very impressive if you have.
wjemather
Well-known member
England Golf didn't send anything out for our 9-hole tee sets, so I created them for us. We still haven't got any 9-hole tees setup on the WHS Platform (dotgolf), but I believe that once we do the tables will be available to download/print from the Course Handicap Table report.
IanMcC
Well-known member
Brilliant! You are right. Downloadable from Reports.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Ignore page 64 of the RoH
It has been altered for some treason by The Guidance on the RoH Page 31
( assuming no one else has already bought this to your attention)
hel
New member
We had the same problem in Scotland. Our club sec sent Scottish Golf all our relevant data and, somehow, eve y dob was 1 day and 4 years out. Our club sec was able to amend their info and put right but it was very time consuming.
rosecott
Money List Winner
WHS has finally got me to the brink after I survived the first few weeks of its introduction.
Please tell me I'm not going doolally.
Yesterday we ran another "counting" stableford competition. One of the players - 15 Course Handicap - blobbed our par 4 12th SI1 hole and duly entered 0 as his gross score when he submitted his score. I was a bit surprised by his stated Adjusted Score on his WHS scoring record. When I looked into the details of his recorded scores on WHS, his blob had been adjusted to 5, not the expected 7.
Can anyone explain this or has my thinking been completely wrong?
Please tell me I'm not going doolally.
Yesterday we ran another "counting" stableford competition. One of the players - 15 Course Handicap - blobbed our par 4 12th SI1 hole and duly entered 0 as his gross score when he submitted his score. I was a bit surprised by his stated Adjusted Score on his WHS scoring record. When I looked into the details of his recorded scores on WHS, his blob had been adjusted to 5, not the expected 7.
Can anyone explain this or has my thinking been completely wrong?
wjemather
Well-known member
Sounds like it has been recorded as a "hole not started/played" (net par) rather than "hole not completed" (net double-bogey).
Different ISVs have different methods for recording these two occurrences. We use ClubV1/howdidido and even they vary slightly depending on which platform/module you are using to enter scores.
rosecott
Money List Winner
Thanks, I realised just after posting that WHS had interpreted the score entry as Not Played rather than played but failed to score for stableford. Have asked for clarity from EG and the ISV.
wjemather
Well-known member
On the WHS Platform, it is "0" (zero) for hole not completed and "*" (asterisk) for hole not started.
In ClubV1, it's zero for not completed and either blank or zero with a DNP tickbox, depending on whether it's a casual or competition score. For player score entry systems, it's zero and the player then confirms whether the hole was played or not.
I expect other ISVs do it differently as well. There's just no consistency whatsoever.
rosecott
Money List Winner
Thank you for that, it will make my task of changing scores a little easier. May I ask where you found out about the WHS distinctions on the platform between not completed and not played? I am forever pulling down documents to find answers - usually without success.
wjemather
Well-known member
Documentation is sorely lacking for all systems it seems, so I'm finding trial and error is the best/only way at the moment.
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
Just watch this as I'm not sure it works correctly.
For casual rounds on V1 I entered a stableford score with a zero for a blobbed hole. When the score entry was completed and saved it was marked as an NR and didn't update WHS. Had to go back and enter NDB scores for it to work properly. Suspect it will use the same code for comps.
IanMcC
Well-known member
Sent this to Wales Golf today regarding our 11 hole comps. Any thoughts from you guys? (Yes, I know the word qualifier isn't really correct anymore, but it gets the message across easier!) Maybe someone with a system other than Club can say how their software responds.
I am writing for a little advice regarding our Friday Comps at Rhuddlan. We run an 11 hole Friday Mixed Stableford at Rhuddlan. 11 holes brings you back to the clubhouse. In the golf season, when the course is in an ‘acceptable’ condition, I wish to run these as handicap qualifiers. My quandry originally was whether to run the comps as 9 hole or 18 hole, but after experimentation it looks a little more complex than that.
I ran test comps on ClubV1 using myself as the player, deleting the scores afterwards. There was no problem with the 9 hole comp. I scored holes 1 to 9 scoring 2 stableford points at each hole, and a differential of 9.0 was returned. My Playing Handicap is 9, so that all seemed in order.
I tried setting up an 18 hole comp, inputting holes 1 to 11 as 2 points each, and having holes 12 to 18 as ‘DNP’. This did not return a score at all to WHS Dashboard. I then tried adding zeroes for holes 12 to 18. The score was now registered on Dashboard, but the differential was 21.0, as the system thought I played all of the holes. The only way I could get the differential to read sensibly was if I edited the score on WHS Dashboard by replacing the 0 with a * for each score on holes 12 to 18. The differential then showed 9.5.
Examining the Rules of Handicapping book, page 37, an 11 hole comp should be scaled up to an 18 hole score. I am assuming that it is the ClubV1 software at fault at the moment, as they pretty much admitted that they have a long way to go with the scoring software when I sat in on a webinar of theirs. They have not yet set up dual tee comps correctly, for example.
My question to you is, assuming ClubV1 manage to sort out all of their problems, would Wales Golf prefer me to
a/ Run these comps as a 9 hole comp. The system will ignore the scores actually shot at holes 10 and 11, and scale up the score accordingly, as it does at the moment.
b/ Run these comps as an 18 hole comp. The system should recognize the holes 1 to 11 actually scored, and scale up the remaining 7 holes accordingly.
In both scenarios there is an element of scaling up, and I can see arguments for and against both methods.
I reiterate, I can only run these as 18 hole comps if ClubV1 fix their software. If acceptable scores were in play right now at Rhuddlan I would either have to run a 9 hole comp, or manually intervene on Dashboard for every competitor adding stars instead of zeroes for holes 12 to 18.
Kind regards,
I am writing for a little advice regarding our Friday Comps at Rhuddlan. We run an 11 hole Friday Mixed Stableford at Rhuddlan. 11 holes brings you back to the clubhouse. In the golf season, when the course is in an ‘acceptable’ condition, I wish to run these as handicap qualifiers. My quandry originally was whether to run the comps as 9 hole or 18 hole, but after experimentation it looks a little more complex than that.
I ran test comps on ClubV1 using myself as the player, deleting the scores afterwards. There was no problem with the 9 hole comp. I scored holes 1 to 9 scoring 2 stableford points at each hole, and a differential of 9.0 was returned. My Playing Handicap is 9, so that all seemed in order.
I tried setting up an 18 hole comp, inputting holes 1 to 11 as 2 points each, and having holes 12 to 18 as ‘DNP’. This did not return a score at all to WHS Dashboard. I then tried adding zeroes for holes 12 to 18. The score was now registered on Dashboard, but the differential was 21.0, as the system thought I played all of the holes. The only way I could get the differential to read sensibly was if I edited the score on WHS Dashboard by replacing the 0 with a * for each score on holes 12 to 18. The differential then showed 9.5.
Examining the Rules of Handicapping book, page 37, an 11 hole comp should be scaled up to an 18 hole score. I am assuming that it is the ClubV1 software at fault at the moment, as they pretty much admitted that they have a long way to go with the scoring software when I sat in on a webinar of theirs. They have not yet set up dual tee comps correctly, for example.
My question to you is, assuming ClubV1 manage to sort out all of their problems, would Wales Golf prefer me to
a/ Run these comps as a 9 hole comp. The system will ignore the scores actually shot at holes 10 and 11, and scale up the score accordingly, as it does at the moment.
b/ Run these comps as an 18 hole comp. The system should recognize the holes 1 to 11 actually scored, and scale up the remaining 7 holes accordingly.
In both scenarios there is an element of scaling up, and I can see arguments for and against both methods.
I reiterate, I can only run these as 18 hole comps if ClubV1 fix their software. If acceptable scores were in play right now at Rhuddlan I would either have to run a 9 hole comp, or manually intervene on Dashboard for every competitor adding stars instead of zeroes for holes 12 to 18.
Kind regards,
rulefan
Tour Winner
I have now had a reply from EG and it has been corrected in the new version of the handbook dated 17/12/20
https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Rules-of-Handicapping-17-12-20.pdf
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