WHS & ISV Issues (Please post only if you are a handicap secretary or involved in admin at your club)

[Swango1980]

It wouldn’t matter if no women are in the field, the system has added the difference as if women are playing. All men’s additions should be the same.

But why is it adding about 3 or 4 shots to men? Surely it would only add to women as their CR is 3 or 4 higher than men?

 

[Old Skier]

But why is it adding about 3 or 4 shots to men? Surely it would only add to women as their CR is 3 or 4 higher than men?

Your right, just set one up out of interest, has he selected the correct courses.

 

[Swango1980]

Your right, just set one up out of interest, has he selected the correct courses.

He has, but I'll get him to try

 

[IanMcC]

Only thing I can think of (legitimately) is that he's setup multiple tees & Club Systems have finally fixed the playing handicap calculations for that?

Nope. Not that. CSI still not adjusting for dual tee comps.

 

[Old Skier]

I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.

 

[IanMcC]

I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.

I tested this morning and no joy. I will try again. Did you set yours up as a qualifier or not?

 

[Old Skier]

I tested this morning and no joy. I will try again. Did you set yours up as a qualifier or not?

Qualifier and checked on both sets of men’s tees as one is 1 different and other is 2 and both adjustments were made.

 

[rulefan]

Does/did V1 require you to do a software update?

 

[IanMcC]

OK, maybe I am going a bit mad, but the adjustment seems inverted to me.

Stableford comp set up. Men yellows and ladies red.

To play to handicap = 36 - (CR - par)
Men 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 36.7, equating to 37
Ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36.2, equating to 36

So the ladies should get 1 shot, I feel.
If I set up this comp the men get a shot.

Stableford comp set up. Men whites and ladies red.

Men 36 - (72.2 - 70) = 33.8, equating to 34
ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 35.8, equating to 36.

So here, the men should get 2 shots.
Setting up this comp the ladies get 2 shots!!!

What am I doing wrong, or has lockdown just made me insane?

 

[Old Skier]

Does/did V1 require you to do a software update?

No, as the main server is where everything comes from.

 

[Old Skier]

OK, maybe I am going a bit mad, but the adjustment seems inverted to me.

Stableford comp set up. Men yellows and ladies red.

To play to handicap = 36 - (CR - par)
Men 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 36.7, equating to 37
Ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36.2, equating to 36

So the ladies should get 1 shot, I feel.
If I set up this comp the men get a shot.

Stableford comp set up. Men whites and ladies red.

Men 36 - (72.2 - 70) = 33.8, equating to 34
ladies 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 35.8, equating to 36.

So here, the men should get 2 shots.
Setting up this comp the ladies get 2 shots!!!

What am I doing wrong, or has lockdown just made me insane?

Where the CR is greater, they are the ones that get the equivalent shot difference is the way I always understood it.

First example men get a shot
Second example ladies get 2 shots.

So the set up is as I understand it correct.

 

[IanMcC]

Where the CR is greater, they are the ones that get the equivalent shot difference is the way I always understood it.

First example men get a shot
Second example ladies get 2 shots.

So the set up is as I understand it correct.

Im not so sure it is as easy as that.
Look at Appendix I of the guidance book. Page 38 in particular:


Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford & Par/Bogey

As the format is singles stroke play, the stroke allowance is 95% of the Course Handicap. In

addition, as both Stableford and Par/Bogey formats are scored against the Par of the course,

rather than the Course Rating, the Playing Handicap calculation includes an adjustment to

reflect the difference to ‘play to handicap’ between the mixed/multi-tee courses. (Rule 6.2b

(ii)).

Number of points to ‘play to handicap’ for a given set of tees = 36 – (CR - Par):

For Norman this is 36 – (67.2 – 71) = 39.8 rounded to 40

For Norma this is 36 – (72.0 - 71) = 35.0 rounded to 35

The players playing to the lower points target receive the difference in the number of points.

So Norma receives 5 additional strokes on her Playing Handicap, for competition purposes.

I used the above example for Rhuddlan, substituting the values

Yellows v Reds

For a man 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 37
For a lady 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36

So the ladies should get a shot, as their 'points target' is lower. I am convinced CSI have got this wrong.

For the record, here are our course ratings and pars:

Gents Yellow: 71.3 and 72
Gents White: 72.2 and 70

Ladies red: 73.8 and 74

 

[Old Skier]

Im not so sure it is as easy as that.
Look at Appendix I of the guidance book. Page 38 in particular:

The following mixed/multi-tees will be used in this section:

CR Slope PAR

Men 67.2 113 71

Women 72.0 129 71

P a g e | 38

Stroke Play Competitions: Stableford & Par/Bogey

As the format is singles stroke play, the stroke allowance is 95% of the Course Handicap. In

addition, as both Stableford and Par/Bogey formats are scored against the Par of the course,

rather than the Course Rating, the Playing Handicap calculation includes an adjustment to

reflect the difference to ‘play to handicap’ between the mixed/multi-tee courses. (Rule 6.2b

(ii)).

Number of points to ‘play to handicap’ for a given set of tees = 36 – (CR - Par):

For Norman this is 36 – (67.2 – 71) = 39.8 rounded to 40

For Norma this is 36 – (72.0 - 71) = 35.0 rounded to 35

The players playing to the lower points target receive the difference in the number of points.

So Norma receives 5 additional strokes on her Playing Handicap, for competition purposes.

I used the above example for Rhuddlan, substituting the values

Yellows v Reds

For a man 36 - (71.3 - 72) = 37
For a lady 36 - (73.8 - 74) = 36

So the ladies should get a shot, as their 'points target' is lower. I am convinced CSI have got this wrong.

Im not into the figures like some but even in the old system based on SSS it was that the difference was based on giving the higher SSS the number of shot difference with the lower SSS. I may obviously be wrong but based on how it used to work it seems fine.

 

[Swango1980]

I have just done tests on this on V1 and as far as I can see mixed comps set up correctly giving ladies 2 extra shots which is the difference between the two courses CRs.

He did a test today, and playing handicaps are OK when set up as men only competition, but wrong when set as mixed. It worked fine as a mixed before the new year, this is the first time it has messed up, so assuming Club V1 changed something

 

[IanMcC]

Im not into the figures like some but even in the old system based on SSS it was that the difference was based on giving the higher SSS the number of shot difference with the lower SSS. I may obviously be wrong but based on how it used to work it seems fine.

Indeed.

Sticking to the yellow v reds in CONGU then.

Yellow for men was par 72, SSS 71
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its easier for the men as the SSS is one less than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get one shot when playing yellows.

If we look at whites v reds

White for men was par 70, SSS 72
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its now easier for the ladies, as the mens SSS is 2 greater than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get 2 shots.

 

[Old Skier]

He did a test today, and playing handicaps are OK when set up as men only competition, but wrong when set as mixed. It worked fine as a mixed before the new year, this is the first time it has messed up, so assuming Club V1 changed something

Strange, all I can say is I did another test set up today and on my understanding it worked fine.

 

[Old Skier]

Indeed.

Sticking to the yellow v reds in CONGU then.

Yellow for men was par 72, SSS 71
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its easier for the men as the SSS is one less than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get one shot when playing yellows.

If we look at whites v reds

White for men was par 70, SSS 72
Reds for ladies was par 74, SSS also 74.
Its now easier for the ladies, as the mens SSS is 2 greater than par, and the ladies is equal, so the men should get 2 shots.

Fried my brain, not sure par has anything to do with it as it’s to do with course difficulty which is measured by the SSS or now the CR?

 

[IanMcC]

Fried my brain, not sure par has anything to do with it as it’s to do with course difficulty which is measured by the SSS or now the CR?

Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.

 

[Old Skier]

Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.

I’ll have a go setting up a stableford one later.

 

[Old Skier]

Post #752 is straight from the Guidance book, and it explains how par is taken into account for a stableford comp. Par is immaterial in a Medal comp, agreed.

Did a side by side and see where you coming from. This time I got an extra shot added to my playing handicap playing stableford where as the ladies got the shots based on medal so V1 are obviously using different algorithm, whether they are right or wrong is above my ability, I’ll try and find out from them Monday.