WHS - is it an advantage to higher handicaps

[rulefan]

Thanks, Swango 1980 and Rulefan. I always like to hear from the well-informed. I think I had worked that out before and then confused myself. Their Course Handicap (Daily Handicap) is what they play off in individual strokeplay, as far as I know.
But does this mean that their differentials are calculated in a different way from ours? If so, our HI is not transferable directly to a GA Index and a World system it is not. If they are calculated the same way, then there must be something in their formula for differentials that is equivalent to our Course Handicap with regard to the nett double bogey limit.

See #79 above. I was editing it when you posted

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

• Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association,

From the above it can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower
handicap player retains an advantage.

Further, the bigger the gap the greater the probability of the lower winning

That's really interesting rulefan. So although I have been assuming that a large difference in handicap would favour me, the high handicap player, in my forthcoming match, actually the opposite is true. Thanks.

 

[Voyager EMH]

As I said in post #72. There is just the Daily Handicap. GA Handicap is Handicap Index

GA Handicaps and Daily Handicaps
There are two types of official handicap allocated in Australia under the WHS; a GA Handicap and a Daily Handicap. The GA Handicap is not designed for use in handicap competition play; rather it is GA’s assessment of the relative golfing ability of a player on a course with a neutral Slope Rating. The Daily Handicap is the handicap to be used in handicap competition play. The GA Handicap is one of the factors used in the calculation of the Daily Handicap.

Further, differentials are calculated differently. Australia is dominated by stableford play where everything is about 36 points. Their formula is a bit more complicated.

((36 – Stableford Score) + Daily Handicap + Par – (Scratch Rating + PCC)) × (113 ÷ Slope Rating)

So the nett double bogey limit is taken care of by the stableford score being included in the differential formula. But the stableford score is according to Daily Handicap which has had 93% applied whereas our Course Handicap for the nett double bogey limit is 100%. Their Daily Handicap includes CR-par which again can be greater or lower than our Course Handicap (depending on whether CR is higher or lower than par) with regard to the nett double bogey limit for differential calculation. This appears to me that anyone in Australia with a GA Index the same as my England Golf administered HI is not necessarily of the same ability and if all my 20 scores were mapped to the GA system I could have a different Handicap Index than I do at the moment. NOT a WHS, unless I am missing something - which could be very likely!

 

[rulefan]

That's really interesting rulefan. So although I have been assuming that a large difference in handicap would favour me, the high handicap player, in my forthcoming match, actually the opposite is true. Thanks.

It's all to do with consistency.

Although it wasn't the fundamental cause, in effect the CONGU system didn't help IMO. A high medal score took a player up 0.1. A corresponding low score could give a > 0.1 reduction. And a high capper could play 10 over one day and 10 under the next. The effect being that high cappers' handicaps were lower than they would have been had they been averaged.

As I've said before, slope and averaging are the real stars of WHS

 

[rulefan]

I could have a different Handicap Index than I do at the moment. NOT a WHS, unless I am missing something - which could be very likely!

I doubt it would be more than 1 stroke, 2 at most depending on rounding.

It was probably the best agreement all parties could negotiate. At least Russia and China hadn't got their own systems.
Incidentally, the authorities never promised absolute uniformity.

 

[jim8flog]

This is one big flaw for me.
If our handicaps are going to be up to date and current ability.
20 cards is a lot! Some people don’t put that many cards in every year and it can skew the results.

It is a lot of comps yes but players can put in a card every time they play. So if you pay 20 time a year......

We have lots of players putting a card every time they play and many that have not put in a single card since we switched to the WHS.

 

[jim8flog]

At my club we have started playing the opening round of our singles ko, 100% of the difference in course handicaps. So far the lower handicaps are getting smoked. I was one under my course handicap the other day as I lost 4&3 on the 15th. Won't be bothering with singles matchplay in future.

It has been 100% in singles for years. I do not see the WHS as the problem except for maybe the fact that many players now have a correct handicap for their ability which meand that some LOw handicaps have actually got a lower H.I. than expected and some mid to high handicap player higher than expected.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Now there is a chap at my club that I've known for a long time. I've always given him about 5 or 6 shots in 4BBB and 6 or 7 in singles matchplay as our handicaps have fluctuated within small limits. Now I will give him 9 shots in singles matchplay. The reason I attribute to this is not to blame WHS, but the old system that reduced his handicap by 0.2 for each shot below handicap whereas my reduction was only 0.1 for doing the same. Now our calculations are based on average of best eight in the same way and this discrepancy or irregularity no longer exists. Maybe my view on this will change as I see more of the new system in operation. But forming firm negative views at this point is too soon, I feel.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Yes

 

[Voyager EMH]

Don't know yet, for certain. But I'll think about it a lot, I'm sure.

 

[clubchamp98]

Exactly what they do in Australia. Course and Playing Handicaps don't exist - just a Daily Handicap.

However that puts the higher handicapper at a bigger disadvantage in match play where previously the lower player already won over 50% of matches.

Did they win more than 50% because they put a lot of practice into their game?

I tried to explain how the WHS works to two new members yesterday.
Blank looks and I know how some teachers feel now.

 

[rulefan]

Did they win more than 50% because they put a lot of practice into their game?

Consistency and experience. The more matches you play the more experienced you are. The more matches you win the more matches you play.

 

[Rlburnside]

• Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association,
English Golf Union and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full
versus three-quarters difference in handicap.
• All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion – full
difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable
allowance.
• A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:
Matches won by lower handicap player - 75% difference 61% - Full difference 55%

From the above it can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower
handicap player retains an advantage.

Further, the bigger the gap the greater the probability of the lower winning

Yet you still have some low h/cs moaning it’s not fair and some won’t play match play. ??‍

I have been drawn against 3 low h/cs and playing 2 next week, the way I look at it is I will have 12 shots but the other 6 will be playing of scratch so to speak and the low guy should win most of them 6.
Im too inconsistent whereas the low player no so much that’s where the advantage is for the low h/cs
I’m normally a very positive kind of player but I’m not expecting to win any of the 3 matches I’ve never played players that low before so it will be interesting to see how the games go.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yet you still have some low h/cs moaning it’s not fair and some won’t play match play. ??‍

I have been drawn against 3 low h/cs and playing 2 next week, the way I look at it is I will have 12 shots but the other 6 will be playing of scratch so to speak and the low guy should win most of them 6.
Im too inconsistent whereas the low player no so much that’s where the advantage is for the low h/cs
I’m normally a very positive kind of player but I’m not expecting to win any of the 3 matches I’ve never played players that low before so it will be interesting to see how the games go.

Thing is though low cappers have bad days just like any other players.
Not as much as high men as their misses are not as bad.
But try giving someone 12 shots when your not on your game.
Who plays best on the day wins so be more positive ,you might surprise yourself.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yet you still have some low h/cs moaning it’s not fair and some won’t play match play. ??‍

I have been drawn against 3 low h/cs and playing 2 next week, the way I look at it is I will have 12 shots but the other 6 will be playing of scratch so to speak and the low guy should win most of them 6.
Im too inconsistent whereas the low player no so much that’s where the advantage is for the low h/cs
I’m normally a very positive kind of player but I’m not expecting to win any of the 3 matches I’ve never played players that low before so it will be interesting to see how the games go.

Pay little or no attention to the moaners. They have little or nothing to offer. All handicap matchplay is around 50% chances or so on the day. Enjoyment is key. Beat the moaners on that score.

 

[Rlburnside]

Thing is though low cappers have bad days just like any other players.
Not as much as high men as their misses are not as bad.
But try giving someone 12 shots when your not on your game.
Who plays best on the day wins so be more positive ,you might surprise yourself.

2 of the games are at my away club which I didn’t play last year so that won’t help, but I know the 2 I’m playing and they will be good to play with, I had a look at the last 2 competitions they played and they both had low 30 points.

As I say I will be interested to see how I fare against a proper golfer ?

 

[Rlburnside]

I’m playing tomorrow so I will post result

 

[davidy233]

Low handicappers moaning about having to give shots - Things you can always rely on

 

[Curls]

2 of the games are at my away club which I didn’t play last year so that won’t help, but I know the 2 I’m playing and they will be good to play with, I had a look at the last 2 competitions they played and they both had low 30 points.

As I say I will be interested to see how I fare against a proper golfer ?

You might be surprised by how ordinary it looks! But watch what happens when they get in trouble. Notice that they miss as many greens as anyone but always seem to be pin high and pitching sideways, getting up and down plenty.

You have every chance though for the simple reason that as a lower handicap his most frequent score is par. He’ll only make a few birdies, on a bad day maybe none. So every hole you have a shot on, if you par it you’ll probably win that hole. Your most frequent score is bogey. Might even go good for a win on a shot hole. That’s a lot of win opportunities. How many pars do you make in a round, and how many of those are on holes you would get a shot on? You make more pars on average than he makes birdies. Birdies are hard, you don’t get lucky or benefit from one super shot like you do in pars, it all has to be good.

Thing he won’t do is make many doubles or worse, which you might, but it’s only a loss of one hole if you do and you move on. Doubles, trebles, worse, they mean nothing.

I agree with that lower handicap players often moan about giving loads of shots only to have that higher handicap tear it up. It’s a common gripe. On paper a 5 handicap giving 10 shots to a 15 handicap is the same as a 22 handicap giving 10 shots to a 32 handicapper. But in reality, the distribution of frequency of scores is totally different, as per my example above.

Handicaps level the playing field so everyone gets a chance to compete regardless of ability. For that, golf is a great sport. But no one ever complained that they received too many shots did they? And the fact is that the player giving you 12 has worked hard at getting better at this game, so don’t bemoan them a grumble if you shoot way under your handicap and thrash them.

I’ve yet to walk off a golf course beaten by someone on an on day and having any bad feeling towards them, we will always have a drink in the bar after and recount a good match. They only problem arises when someone is clearly manipulating their handicap and that tends to the vast minority imo.

Play a good game, you’ve every chance, but the talk above of lower handicaps being in the wrong for moaning about being thrashed by an 18 handicap shooting 10 over is mad. I can’t shoot -6 to beat you. It’s not possible. The will always be dropped shots so it requires about 9 birdies minimum which is a truck load of great golf. It would be thought amazing by pretty much anyone. For you 10 over is a great score, maybe even unthinkable - but it just means keeping the doubles off your card. That’s not the same thing, it’s not amazing golf, it’s just steady- indeed for me that would be a bad round.

And thats where the moan comes from.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

• Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association,
English Golf Union and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full
versus three-quarters difference in handicap.
• All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion – full
difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable
allowance.
• A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:
Matches won by lower handicap player - 75% difference 61% - Full difference 55%

From the above it can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower
handicap player retains an advantage.

Further, the bigger the gap the greater the probability of the lower winning

How do the governing bodies get the results of matchplay events when the results don’t get sent to them ?‍

How have they “investigated” ?- it’s the same with 4BBB or scrambles , Greensomes , foursomes etc - clubs don’t send them the results

Where did SGU get the 4000 matchplay results from - or do Scottish clubs send the results into their union