WHS - is it an advantage to higher handicaps

[Deleted member 15344]

I understand the requests were to selected clubs.

Really? I “understand” that no clubs sent any information about matchplay results to the governing bodies - there is no method to , they did use county KO’s apparently.

But the singles matchplay hasn’t changed in all the years I have played , always been full difference and don’t expect that to change , clubs add in maximum shots to reduce the amount of shots given.

The changes to 4BBB matchplay from 3/4 to 90% was based on strokeplay results ?‍ How that comes about I’ll never know but I would like to understand the rationale for the new method and if it actually makes a difference

 

[wjemather]

I have never given a game away.
Why enter if your going to do that.
But do feel sorry for a scratch golfer playing a 54 handicap.
High cappers make big mistakes ,kills them in a medal , but in a match it’s only one hole.
It’s the 12/18 cappers that always beat me they can play and have a few shots

I am a scratch golfer, and giving lots of strokes has never bothered me in the slightest. High handicappers get the strokes because they need them, and more often than not, they need plenty more than they are getting.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why on earth would they make it up, except that it fits your narrative.
It is very easy to do the stays from your own club, I have done it for mine over the yeas and it always shows that somewhere between 50% and 60% of matches are won by the lower handcapped player. Clealry not large enough a sample size to prove anything though it does fit to the research carried out by the various governing bodies.

Matchplay results are not collected so where did they get the data used for the stats.

 

[clubchamp98]

I am a scratch golfer, and giving lots of strokes has never bothered me in the slightest. High handicappers get the strokes because they need them, and more often than not, they need plenty more than they are getting.

As I said it’s the 12 ish who can play that’s dangerous.
But what’s a high handicapper these days.

 

[doublebogey7]

Matchplay results are not collected so where did they get the data used for the stats.

As Rulefan had told you some clubs were asked to submit their Matchplay results. Why would the various bodies who make the same claim make it up, there is no gain for them in doing so.

 

[clubchamp98]

As Rulefan had told you some clubs were asked to submit their Matchplay results. Why would the various bodies who make the same claim make it up, there is no gain for them in doing so.

Where did I say there was a gain .
Asking a few clubs for their results isn’t very hard and not very representative.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As Rulefan had told you some clubs were asked to submit their Matchplay results. Why would the various bodies who make the same claim make it up, there is no gain for them in doing so.

When I was in conversation with EG about various things we discussed about matchplay allowances etc ( was asking if it was fair to put shot limits on ) and they said they get no data from matchplay events , there is no process there for it to happen , it’s all done by theoretical algorithms . Same with 4BBB , scrambles etc and any format where the results don’t get set in. No issues with it because it’s prob near impossible to go through those results

 

[Jimaroid]

How were stroke indexes and course variations factored into these analysed match play scores? Considering there’s no consistency in which holes are allocated which stroke indexes across multiple courses and the part they play in matchplay and strokes received I’m inclined to believe that no rigorous analysis was done. I suspect the truth is because there are too many variables to dimension they just made something up from a small amount of inconsistent data.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Our first board comp of the year was on Saturday - a handicap comp - won by an 18 h/capper playing nine under his handicap. One of our low guys says he expects all handicap comps this year to be won by high handicappers...it‘ll take a while (year?) for WHS to get most handicaps about right.

 

[davidy233]

Our first board comp of the year was on Saturday - a handicap comp - won by an 18 h/capper playing nine under his handicap. One of our low guys says he expects all handicap comps this year to be won by high handicappers...it‘ll take a while (year?) for WHS to get most handicaps about right.

Most of the handicap stroke play events at my place this year would have been won by lowish handicaps if we lumped everyone into one pot, but we do handicap divisions.

Nobody has battered either course either, Maybe the low guys at my place are better than the norm - maybe the high handicap guys are worse than normal - or maybe we have courses which favour lower handicap golfers.

 

[rulefan]

When I was in conversation with EG about various things we discussed about matchplay allowances etc ( was asking if it was fair to put shot limits on ) and they said they get no data from matchplay events , there is no process there for it to happen , it’s all done by theoretical algorithms . Same with 4BBB , scrambles etc and any format where the results don’t get set in. No issues with it because it’s prob near impossible to go through those results

I would suggest that most of the staff now in the handicapping department are relatively new and were not around at the time. But as I remember from my time on the responsible committee they got real matchplay data (possibly in conjunction with the SGU) although I wasn't involved.

Of course the biggest contributor to real data and its analysis was the USGA with many thousands of available results. The then EGU was only a bit player but the Scottish Golf Union survey covered 4000 handicap singles matches.

 

[clubchamp98]

Most of the handicap stroke play events at my place this year would have been won by lowish handicaps if we lumped everyone into one pot, but we do handicap divisions.

Nobody has battered either course either, Maybe the low guys at my place are better than the norm - maybe the high handicap guys are worse than normal - or maybe we have courses which favour lower handicap golfers.

Do you have a lot of holes where you need a draw shape( right handed golfer).?
This does favour low guys a bit as most high cappers hit a fade. But not all.
I play a fade and certain courses are harder than others off the tee due to the shape of the holes.

 

[davidy233]

Do you have a lot of holes where you need a draw shape( right handed golfer).?
This does favour low guys a bit as most high cappers hit a fade. But not all.
I play a fade and certain courses are harder than others off the tee due to the shape of the holes.

The two courses are very different, though both links turf - one has held Open Final qualifying several times (6655 yards), decent size greens, out of bounds down right of first six holes (but shouldn't come into play on 3 of them) and the other is short (5123 yards) but much tighter with small greens (out of bounds in play on right of last three holes).

I'm not sure that shot shape would make a difference other than a slice as opposed to a fade on the holes I've mentioned - we do have a fair few plus handicappers and a pretty high percentage of CAT 1 and single figure golfers.

 

[richart]

Last competition, top 20 players only five had handicap higher than 12, and of those five, highest was 19. Not seeing any advantage for higher handicaps.

Surely in competition golf, higher handicappers lose more shots based on 95 % ?

 

[jim8flog]

Do you have a lot of holes where you need a draw shape( right handed golfer).?
This does favour low guys a bit as most high cappers hit a fade. But not all.

I play a fade and certain courses are harder than others off the tee due to the shape of the holes.

Draw is not a big advantage where I play we are a clockwise course and most holes favour a fade.

A lot of better players can probably work the ball either way which is a big advantage.

The other advantage low handicappers have is the 'intimidation factor'. I bet a lot of high handicappers get the 'shakes' when they play against them.

 

[r0wly86]

Under the old system, a hell of a lot of comps were won by high handicappers.

Just the way of golf isn't it, low handicappers will generally be a lot more consistent, but won't shoot significantly below their handicap, whereas high handicappers all have a round in them where they avoid their blow up holes and play a blinder. If you have a large enough field it is quite common for at least 1 high handicapper to have one of these rounds.

In my rugby club society I have been 3rd each time, but it has been by won a different person each time as one person just has one of those rounds

 

[Voyager EMH]

Interesting day ahead on Saturday; historic board comp for 19 and over handicaps. So H&C, instead of stating clearly what the new HI qualifying limit is, have stated, “Playing handicaps of 19 and over.” (This is HI of 16.7 for SR 132) I think that it was a tough decision as to the least worst option of announcement to avoid confusion. The rest of us play a stableford non board comp. We all mix in, so there are not separate tee time slots. Two separate competitions on the same day both stableford.
Previous years, the under 19s showed a much higher percentage of scores below handicap with the lowest nett score of the day as well far more often than not.
Looking forward to analysing this year’s results for this thread, but I suspect there will be nothing very significant to report other than just that – nothing very significant to report. But we shall see.

 

[clubchamp98]

Draw is not a big advantage where I play we are a clockwise course and most holes favour a fade.

A lot of better players can probably work the ball either way which is a big advantage.

The other advantage low handicappers have is the 'intimidation factor'. I bet a lot of high handicappers get the 'shakes' when they play against them.

Yes mine is also but you must shape it both ways as there is a variety.

Yes as I said earlier.
Some have just given the game away because they don’t want to face a low man.
Madness. Why enter?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Interesting day ahead on Saturday; historic board comp for 19 and over handicaps. So H&C, instead of stating clearly what the new HI qualifying limit is, have stated, “Playing handicaps of 19 and over.” (This is HI of 16.7 for SR 132) I think that it was a tough decision as to the least worst option of announcement to avoid confusion. The rest of us play a stableford non board comp. We all mix in, so there are not separate tee time slots. Two separate competitions on the same day both stableford.
Previous years, the under 19s showed a much higher percentage of scores below handicap with the lowest nett score of the day as well far more often than not.
Looking forward to analysing this year’s results for this thread, but I suspect there will be nothing very significant to report other than just that – nothing very significant to report. But we shall see.

I have put the top 25% from each group and their stableford points. Make what you will of it.

 

[Ser Shankalot]

I have put the top 25% from each group and their stableford points. Make what you will of it.

Very small sample size but it reflects what many are saying - most good scores will be from low handicaps, but have a large enough field of high handicaps and chances are that atleast one will have a one-off round to remember just based on probability and distribution.