WHS - is it an advantage to higher handicaps

[rulefan]

How do the governing bodies get the results of matchplay events when the results don’t get sent to them ?‍

How have they “investigated” ?- it’s the same with 4BBB or scrambles , Greensomes , foursomes etc - clubs don’t send them the results

Where did SGU get the 4000 matchplay results from - or do Scottish clubs send the results into their union

I don't know for sure about Scotland but certainly the USGA and others asked clubs etc in advance to keep results. Most clubs will have a results sheet pinned to a notice board showing the results of all the KO rounds so no real difficulty there.
As it happens, when CONGU changed the matchplay allowance, the then club manager and I went through the ko rounds of all our club comps for the previous five years. They were all in a filing cabinet in a store room. The outcome we found matched the Scottish data virtually spot on. In fact in one year all matches were won by the lower capper. We excluded that year from our analysis.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don't know for sure about Scotland but certainly the USGA and others asked clubs etc in advance to keep results. Most clubs will have a results sheet pinned to a notice board showing the results of all the KO rounds so no real difficulty there.

Results pinned to the board don’t mean the governing bodies get to see them

Also keeping results don’t mean the governing bodies see the results

As it happens, when CONGU changed the matchplay allowance, the then club manager and I went through the ko rounds of all our club comps for the previous five years. They were all in a filing cabinet in a store room. The outcome we found matched the Scottish data virtually spot on. In fact in one year all matches were won by the lower capper. We excluded that year from our analysis.

None of that answers the simple question - how do the governing bodies know what results happen at the clubs in the UK

Not once have we ever sent any KO result to Congu or EG

So how have they “investigated” ? What real time results did they use.

It’s the same with why the recommendation for the scramble handicaps when they have no idea what happens at each club.

Have they used “therotical” results.

 

[Old Skier]

How do the governing bodies get the results of matchplay events when the results don’t get sent to them ?‍

How have they “investigated” ?- it’s the same with 4BBB or scrambles , Greensomes , foursomes etc - clubs don’t send them the results

Where did SGU get the 4000 matchplay results from - or do Scottish clubs send the results into their union

I think you’ll find LP it was done on modelling from scores gained over the years through the old CDH system on stroke play comps. That’s the only way it could be done in reality, however how their models allowed for the different ways players would play in match play compared to stroke play is beyond me.

I can only go by my club which certainly appears that the lower the HC the more likely the eventual winner of a match play comp will be.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think you’ll find LP it was done on modelling from scores gained over the years through the old CDH system on stroke play comps. That’s the only way it could be done in reality, however how their models allowed for the different ways players would play in match play compared to stroke play is beyond me.

I can only go by my club which certainly appears that the lower the HC the more likely the eventual winner of a match play comp will be.

I have no issues with them use Strokeplay data to look at strokeplay allowances but how they can even use that for matchplay allowances will be interesting to understand

Even when they went to 9/10 from 3/4 in 4BBB each 4BBB Ko was then won by mid / high handicaps before it was a mixture

We have full allowances for singles but have always been maximum of 18 shots - our club handicap KO has been won by high and mid HCs for years. I don’t enter them now because of the amount of shots giving , lost three years in a row to high handicaps giving 14-17 shots

 

[davidy233]

I think you’ll find LP it was done on modelling from scores gained over the years through the old CDH system on stroke play comps. That’s the only way it could be done in reality, however how their models allowed for the different ways players would play in match play compared to stroke play is beyond me.

I can only go by my club which certainly appears that the lower the HC the more likely the eventual winner of a match play comp will be.

I'm sure I've seen articles on data that proves low handicappers win more than lose in match play situations in Golf Monthly in the past (was a few years ago) - maybe there's an article idea for Mark T to find out how they actually gather that data?

 

[rulefan]

Results pinned to the board don’t mean the governing bodies get to see them

Also keeping results don’t mean the governing bodies see the results



None of that answers the simple question - how do the governing bodies know what results happen at the clubs in the UK

Not once have we ever sent any KO result to Congu or EG

So how have they “investigated” ? What real time results did they use.

It’s the same with why the recommendation for the scramble handicaps when they have no idea what happens at each club.

Have they used “therotical” results.

The analysis of real data by the USGA is of a few orders of magnitude greater than that done by Scotland. However, this is what the SGU had to say at the time.

Much of the research information was obtained from analysis of the weekly golf returns in the Herald Newspaper. Each Wednesday the Herald publishes competition results from Scottish golf clubs and includes information on SSS, CSS, number of competitors and scores of the prizewinners and their handicaps.
Returns over three years and embracing 2622 competitions (approximately 250,000 rounds of golf!) were analysed.

Cat.1 players typically score in the range 2 below to 6 above their handicap with a mean score of around 2 above the CSS.
Cat 4 players have a wider spread and a mean nett differential of 5/6 strokes above the CSS, compared to 2 strokes above CSS for Cat.1 as previously identified.

It is worth re-iterating that each time a scratch player takes part in a stroke play competition his expected score is not to his handicap (i.e. nett differential of zero) but to two strokes above his handicap. In contrast if a Cat.4 player plays to five/six strokes above the CSS that is no more, or no less, than his expected performance.

When the distribution of winners by handicap category is related to their representation in the field, it can be seen that all handicap categories win in reasonable proportion to their entry i.e. Category 1 and Category 3 players typically comprise 8% and 40% of a club competition and in a ‘single class’ competition win 10% and 38% of the time.

I must admit I don't know how they collected the scramble figures. But I just constructed a simulation for my club of the WHS recommendation for a whole range of handicaps and found it was pretty consistent in producing a similar team handicap for all teams.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The analysis of real data by the USGA is of a few orders of magnitude greater than that done by Scotland. However, this is what the SGU had to say at the time.

Much of the research information was obtained from analysis of the weekly golf returns in the Herald Newspaper. Each Wednesday the Herald publishes competition results from Scottish golf clubs and includes information on SSS, CSS, number of competitors and scores of the prizewinners and their handicaps.
Returns over three years and embracing 2622 competitions (approximately 250,000 rounds of golf!) were analysed.

Cat.1 players typically score in the range 2 below to 6 above their handicap with a mean score of around 2 above the CSS.
Cat 4 players have a wider spread and a mean nett differential of 5/6 strokes above the CSS, compared to 2 strokes above CSS for Cat.1 as previously identified.

It is worth re-iterating that each time a scratch player takes part in a stroke play competition his expected score is not to his handicap (i.e. nett differential of zero) but to two strokes above his handicap. In contrast if a Cat.4 player plays to five/six strokes above the CSS that is no more, or no less, than his expected performance.

When the distribution of winners by handicap category is related to their representation in the field, it can be seen that all handicap categories win in reasonable proportion to their entry i.e. Category 1 and Category 3 players typically comprise 8% and 40% of a club competition and in a ‘single class’ competition win 10% and 38% of the time.

I must admit I don't know how they collected the scramble figures. But I just constructed a simulation for my club of the WHS recommendation for a whole range of handicaps and found it was pretty consistent in producing a similar team handicap for all teams.

How about Matchplay statistics? From the local paper as well

we aren’t talking about strokeplay competitions as those results are sent in by clubs via CDH etc in the past

Is it all done by “simulation”

is the truth closer to the fact they have based all matchplay , foursomes, 4bbb etc have all been based from theoretical assumptions based on strokeplay results which in reality have minimal bearing on a matchplay event.

 

[Rlburnside]

You might be surprised by how ordinary it looks! But watch what happens when they get in trouble. Notice that they miss as many greens as anyone but always seem to be pin high and pitching sideways, getting up and down plenty.

You have every chance though for the simple reason that as a lower handicap his most frequent score is par. He’ll only make a few birdies, on a bad day maybe none. So every hole you have a shot on, if you par it you’ll probably win that hole. Your most frequent score is bogey. Might even go good for a win on a shot hole. That’s a lot of win opportunities. How many pars do you make in a round, and how many of those are on holes you would get a shot on? You make more pars on average than he makes birdies. Birdies are hard, you don’t get lucky or benefit from one super shot like you do in pars, it all has to be good.

Thing he won’t do is make many doubles or worse, which you might, but it’s only a loss of one hole if you do and you move on. Doubles, trebles, worse, they mean nothing.

I agree with that lower handicap players often moan about giving loads of shots only to have that higher handicap tear it up. It’s a common gripe. On paper a 5 handicap giving 10 shots to a 15 handicap is the same as a 22 handicap giving 10 shots to a 32 handicapper. But in reality, the distribution of frequency of scores is totally different, as per my example above.

Handicaps level the playing field so everyone gets a chance to compete regardless of ability. For that, golf is a great sport. But no one ever complained that they received too many shots did they? And the fact is that the player giving you 12 has worked hard at getting better at this game, so don’t bemoan them a grumble if you shoot way under your handicap and thrash them.

I’ve yet to walk off a golf course beaten by someone on an on day and having any bad feeling towards them, we will always have a drink in the bar after and recount a good match. They only problem arises when someone is clearly manipulating their handicap and that tends to the vast minority imo.

Play a good game, you’ve every chance, but the talk above of lower handicaps being in the wrong for moaning about being thrashed by an 18 handicap shooting 10 over is mad. I can’t shoot -6 to beat you. It’s not possible. The will always be dropped shots so it requires about 9 birdies minimum which is a truck load of great golf. It would be thought amazing by pretty much anyone. For you 10 over is a great score, maybe even unthinkable - but it just means keeping the doubles off your card. That’s not the same thing, it’s not amazing golf, it’s just steady- indeed for me that would be a bad round.

And thats where the moan comes from.

Good summery? I’ve had 9 pars in a round before but that’s rare I suppose I average 4/5 pars in a round, looking forward to the match it will be interesting, If I play to my potential I could win but I am inconsistent

 

[rulefan]

How about Matchplay statistics? From the local paper as well

we aren’t talking about strokeplay competitions as those results are sent in by clubs via CDH etc in the past

Is it all done by “simulation”

is the truth closer to the fact they have based all matchplay , foursomes, 4bbb etc have all been based from theoretical assumptions based on strokeplay results which in reality have minimal bearing on a matchplay event.

No. Matchplay results were the easiest to collect. As I indicated in #102, clubs and competition organisers were approached beforehand and asked to keep all matchplay results and let their appropriate authority have copies together with any historic results they had.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No. Matchplay results were the easiest to collect. As I indicated in #102, clubs and competition organisers were approached beforehand and asked to keep all matchplay results and let their appropriate authority have copies together with any historic results they had.

Are you saying that Congu or EG asked the clubs to keep the matchplay results and send them in ? When was this ? Cant recall ever been asked nor the county

It’s just a simple thing - how did all the clubs matchplay results get to the governing bodies ?

 

[clubchamp98]

Depends what you define as a high handicapper.
54 shots is a massive advantage imo.

 

[rulefan]

Are you saying that Congu or EG asked the clubs to keep the matchplay results and send them in ? When was this ? Cant recall ever been asked nor the county

It’s just a simple thing - how did all the clubs matchplay results get to the governing bodies ?

I understand the requests were to selected clubs.

 

[clubchamp98]

I understand the requests were to selected clubs.

The ESL of golf ??
They have made it up we have all known that for donkeys years.
It’s virtually impossible to put stats on matchplay as all we see is a result.

 

[doublebogey7]

The ESL of golf ??
They have made it up we have all known that for donkeys years.
It’s virtually impossible to put stats on matchplay as all we see is a result.

Why on earth would they make it up, except that it fits your narrative.
It is very easy to do the stays from your own club, I have done it for mine over the yeas and it always shows that somewhere between 50% and 60% of matches are won by the lower handcapped player. Clealry not large enough a sample size to prove anything though it does fit to the research carried out by the various governing bodies.

 

[rulefan]

They have made it up we have all known that for donkeys years.

How or where did you get that definitive information?

 

[Rlburnside]

Well not the thumping I was expecting I lost 2-1 but it was pretty even most of the match I went 3 down at one point but got it back to 1 on the 16th. He is a 7 h/c so gave me 10 shots.

He beat a 28 h/c last week in a different match play,I’m not going to play in match play again as these low guys are to good ??

Normally I’m a good putter but the greens on this course were faster and I’ve not played there for over a year so I struggled, the first I had 2 puts from around 8 feet to win the hole but missed.

Neither of us played particularly well but it was very enjoyable and played in good spirit, one hole I lost was when my drive landed next to a deep ditch rather than standing in the ditch I tried to play it left handed with the back of the club 2 swings I missed the ball? then I swung from standing in the ditch and advanced the ball 30 yards.

I was surprised I played with the same h/c as my home course which is par 71 at 5957 yards with a slope of 118 as opposed to a par 68 at 5562 yards not sure of the slope for this course.

I’m playing a young lad off 4 on Thursday he’s a big hitter but can be wayward he doesn’t really need a driver on this short course but as I say he’s young and likes to hit it long.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why on earth would they make it up, except that it fits your narrative.
It is very easy to do the stays from your own club, I have done it for mine over the yeas and it always shows that somewhere between 50% and 60% of matches are won by the lower handcapped player. Clealry not large enough a sample size to prove anything though it does fit to the research carried out by the various governing bodies.

I know from my own experience and lads I have spoken to.
That a lot of high caps just give the game to low men.
Why I don’t know.
That just goes down as a win to a low man.
Stats can prove anything

 

[wjemather]

I know from my own experience and lads I have spoken to.
That a lot of high caps just give the game to low men.
Why I don’t know.
That just goes down as a win to a low man.
Stats can prove anything

By the sounds of it, there are more than enough lows on here who give up as soon as they see a high handicapper to balance it out.

 

[clubchamp98]

By the sounds of it, there are more than enough lows on here who give up as soon as they see a high handicapper to balance it out.

I have never given a game away.
Why enter if your going to do that.
But do feel sorry for a scratch golfer playing a 54 handicap.
High cappers make big mistakes ,kills them in a medal , but in a match it’s only one hole.
It’s the 12/18 cappers that always beat me they can play and have a few shots

 

[clubchamp98]

How or where did you get that definitive information?

Selected clubs .
My club has never been asked for matchplay results.
Do they use an algorithm?