WHS - is it an advantage to higher handicaps

[Swango1980]

Is it not just the nature of golf handicaps? I normally go round my course in 90-105, but at various times I've birdied most holes on the course and parred them all.
If I was to have a really good one off round (it hasn't happened yet, but I live in hope), there's a vaguely realistic chance I could go low 80s. A 10 handicap golfer isn't realistically likely to go round 5 under gross par. Not at my course anyway.

Technically, handicaps are meant to be fair across all handicap levels. However, if you have a very large field, it increases the chances a higher handicapper will have a great day and get a score no lower handicapper could achieve. This is why they added the 95% playing allowance, to remove this unfairness (the basic advice is to apply it in fields over 30, but in UK it is mandatory for all field sizes).

Whether 95% is enough is another matter, but analysis of scores suggests it is.

 

[sweaty sock]

Is it not laughable that we've got 3 pages in to a topic that basically says 'Giving people a head start makes it more likely for them to win!'

We're all arguing about how big a head start we get compared to our mates. And trying to call it fair competition...

 

[RichA]

Is it not laughable that we've got 3 pages in to a topic that basically says 'Giving people a head start makes it more likely for them to win!'

We're all arguing about how big a head start we get compared to our mates. And trying to call it fair competition...

My 25 shot head start isn't endangering anyone's ego at the moment, least of all mine.

 

[LincolnShep]

Why are so many obsessed with winners of competitions? Play the best you can and reduce your handicap by as much as you can - is this not the main objective? Does the new system make this easier or harder for you to do than the old system? If you win a comp along the way, that is merely a side issue where luckily, you were not as bad as everyone else on that day.

Exactly this! I enter comps because it means I can just turn up and play without having to book a tee time or find some playing partners (I guess I'm lazy!). I couldn't be less bothered who wins.

 

[Voyager EMH]

My 25 shot head start isn't endangering anyone's ego at the moment, least of all mine.

...and I hope that you are enjoying your golf regardless of whether or not you have more or less chance of winning a comp than me. This sentiment is more important to me than the thread-start question. The discussion is a relevant current affair in the golfing world, however.

 

[sunshine]

Why are so many obsessed with winners of competitions? Play the best you can and reduce your handicap by as much as you can - is this not the main objective? Does the new system make this easier or harder for you to do than the old system? If you win a comp along the way, that is merely a side issue where luckily, you were not as bad as everyone else on that day.

You make a good point but I don't fully agree. Generally we all want to play well, reduce our handicaps, and win. But some people just want to win - their primary objective is picking up trophies and collecting the winnings. That's why we have bandits. Ultimately all these complex formulae will always be exploited by some people.

A level playing field is scratch. Any handicap system is giving a higher handicapper a head start, so complaining that they want more of a head start is a quirk particular to golf alone. But it's also possibly the greatest feature of amateur golf.

 

[Orikoru]

I would say firstly that I'm not really knowledgeable enough to state firmly one way or the other, and I only have anecdotal evidence (like most people tbh). But at our old course when they changed the system, my mate went from 30 to 28 index, but with the slope he actually received 31 shots - so things like that make it seem like it favours higher handicappers. The new system should allow people's handicaps to change more freely and thus be more accurate, but as I mentioned on another topic, at my new club I've heard reports of 37 handicappers smashing it in a comp and only getting cut by 1 shot or something, because he doesn't hand many cards in. Something doesn't seem right about it, but maybe it does just need a year or two to straighten out.

 

[Voyager EMH]

In October 2020 my handicap was 5.6 in old money. This changed to HI 4.3 overnight in November 2020. After 6 competitive rounds my HI is 3.3 and CH and PH is 4. If we had continued to have the old system, I would be 4.8. I do not feel disadvantaged by the new system in endeavouring to get my handicap as low as it can be by playing to my utmost ability in competitions.
I won a weekday stableford last month with 38 points off 4 with 59 entrants giving me more pro-shop credit. I have had 7 twos in those six rounds as well. I really do not feel disadvantaged in any way by higher handicappers.
Thank you!

 

[PJ87]

I would say firstly that I'm not really knowledgeable enough to state firmly one way or the other, and I only have anecdotal evidence (like most people tbh). But at our old course when they changed the system, my mate went from 30 to 28 index, but with the slope he actually received 31 shots - so things like that make it seem like it favours higher handicappers. The new system should allow people's handicaps to change more freely and thus be more accurate, but as I mentioned on another topic, at my new club I've heard reports of 37 handicappers smashing it in a comp and only getting cut by 1 shot or something, because he doesn't hand many cards in. Something doesn't seem right about it, but maybe it does just need a year or two to straighten out.

The handicap system won't work until 20 cards are fully in.. the average of whatever cards formula only works properly when you get to 20

He gets 31 shots is that before playing handicap? If not that would be 29 shots no? Which would have him off less than before

I'm off a lower handicap than I could be as I only have 14 cards in

Once I get to 20 unless I put in 6 belters like the 2 cards bringing it down I'll go back up a couple shots due to the average formula

 

[Orikoru]

The handicap system won't work until 20 cards are fully in.. the average of whatever cards formula only works properly when you get to 20

He gets 31 shots is that before playing handicap? If not that would be 29 shots no? Which would have him off less than before

I'm off a lower handicap than I could be as I only have 14 cards in

Once I get to 20 unless I put in 6 belters like the 2 cards bringing it down I'll go back up a couple shots due to the average formula

I've no idea. One of the many problems with the new system is that it's too taxing for my brain to work out. My IG app tells me what I'm off and that's enough for me. You're right though, it does seem to be quite flawed if you don't have all the cards in. My mate I was talking about has 20 rounds, but he didn't play a single comp in 2020 so his 20 rounds are mostly from ages ago.

I shot 87 off the whites at my new club last weekend, and I thought that would count as one of my 8 best, but it hasn't - I still have a couple of 90s from my old club that are counting because the slope is 131 as opposed to 117.

 

[Swango1980]

The handicap system won't work until 20 cards are fully in.. the average of whatever cards formula only works properly when you get to 20

He gets 31 shots is that before playing handicap? If not that would be 29 shots no? Which would have him off less than before

I'm off a lower handicap than I could be as I only have 14 cards in

Once I get to 20 unless I put in 6 belters like the 2 cards bringing it down I'll go back up a couple shots due to the average formula

It makes me nervous when few scores are in, especially initial handicap after 3 cards.

For example, one new member submitted cards of 117, 129 (123) and 113 (Adjusted Gross). His Index is 38.2, Course Handicap 45, Playing Handicap in Singles stroke play 43. Now, it is not unlikely that he will now go out and do a little practice before he risks entering a competition. If he does, it may not be unreasonable that he could go out and shoot a score of 100. If he did, that would be a nett 57 or 49 points. If he breaks 100, he is getting 50+ points.

Another member submitted scores of 82, 78 and 86 (Par 70, CR 66.8), His initial index is 7.7 (Course and Playing Handicap 9). So, if he wants to practice a little before he plays a competition, for him to get 50+ points he would need to go out and shoot gross 65 or better. I am guessing this is much more unlikely than the first guy...

I think our comp sec may soon bring in a condition that a competition cannot be won unless you have 20 scores in your scoring history.

 

[PJ87]

It makes me nervous when few scores are in, especially initial handicap after 3 cards.

For example, one new member submitted cards of 117, 129 (123) and 113 (Adjusted Gross). His Index is 38.2, Course Handicap 45, Playing Handicap in Singles stroke play 43. Now, it is not unlikely that he will now go out and do a little practice before he risks entering a competition. If he does, it may not be unreasonable that he could go out and shoot a score of 100. If he did, that would be a nett 57 or 49 points. If he breaks 100, he is getting 50+ points.

Another member submitted scores of 82, 78 and 86 (Par 70, CR 66.8), His initial index is 7.7 (Course and Playing Handicap 9). So, if he wants to practice a little before he plays a competition, for him to get 50+ points he would need to go out and shoot gross 65 or better. I am guessing this is much more unlikely than the first guy...

I think our comp sec may soon bring in a condition that a competition cannot be won unless you have 20 scores in your scoring history.

I personally think all comps should be limited to a max handicap for say 3 comps .. so if your off 34 you have to enter 3 comps until you can have that full handicap. Just to check .

On the flip side people are allowed to improve. Guy won our weekend comp with 46 points off 31 handicap .. got cut to 26 index playing 28 I think

He's improving for sure

I know he's having lessons as I follow the range on insta and the pro posts his results saying "another win for one of my students" so you got it factor improvement for higher players

@Orikoru its good to go diff places tho and see how your handicap performs

You can look up his index and work it out via the golf England app . Or just bit of maths lol

 

[tobybarker]

Nobody I have spoken to sees any advantage of the new system over the old, or as one person said "it's a solution looking for a problem". That might be down to their ignorance or poor communication from the club, or may be a valid position, depending on your point of view

 

[clubchamp98]

I've no idea. One of the many problems with the new system is that it's too taxing for my brain to work out. My IG app tells me what I'm off and that's enough for me. You're right though, it does seem to be quite flawed if you don't have all the cards in. My mate I was talking about has 20 rounds, but he didn't play a single comp in 2020 so his 20 rounds are mostly from ages ago.

I shot 87 off the whites at my new club last weekend, and I thought that would count as one of my 8 best, but it hasn't - I still have a couple of 90s from my old club that are counting because the slope is 131 as opposed to 117.

This is one big flaw for me.
If our handicaps are going to be up to date and current ability.
20 cards is a lot! Some people don’t put that many cards in every year and it can skew the results.

 

[Orikoru]

This is one big flaw for me.
If our handicaps are going to be up to date and current ability.
20 cards is a lot! Some people don’t put that many cards in every year and it can skew the results.

I guess that's why they encourage people to put more cards in, but I think a lot of people, me including, are happy with it being just competition rounds.

 

[clubchamp98]

I guess that's why they encourage people to put more cards in, but I think a lot of people, me including, are happy with it being just competition rounds.

I bet the Hcap secs are happy as well.

 

[Wildrover]

At my club we have started playing the opening round of our singles ko, 100% of the difference in course handicaps. So far the lower handicaps are getting smoked. I was one under my course handicap the other day as I lost 4&3 on the 15th. Won't be bothering with singles matchplay in future.

 

[Voyager EMH]

This is one big flaw for me.
If our handicaps are going to be up to date and current ability.
20 cards is a lot! Some people don’t put that many cards in every year and it can skew the results.

You may have a good point, but it might be swings and roundabouts. If a player has good scores from 4 years ago still exerting a downward pull on his/her handicap, then this could be considered a valid element of proven ability, which could be regained. Poor scores from that long ago will not matter, if they are not in best 8. If an individual feels that their current handicap is too high or too low, they may submit more cards, or give grounds (health, injury etc) for review.
My current personal experience is that the next 5 scores that I will replace contain 3 in my best 8, including the best score of all. This was a run of good form last July/August. If those scores were from 2018, because I had only returned 5 or so a year, the effect would/will be the same, but spaced over a longer period of time, but not a greater number of rounds.
So I believe the point your are making is about players either struggling or cleaning up in social golf 20 times a year, while only submitting 4 or 5 cards a year for assessment. In that case - twas ever thus - and such players should be encouraged or cajoled into submitting general play scores. Can't think of another possible solution at the moment.

 

[sawtooth]

As a handicap secretary I have to embrace the new WHS system. I think we will see some changes with it in the next few years because there are some things about it that don't work very well and cause confusion.

Namely, 2 handicaps on the card, 1 that you need for competiting in the comp, and the other you need to pay attention to for handicap purposes. Confuses the life out of people.

The others are PCC and NS ( not NR that's different).

From what I know and have seen so far I think it's a fair system that doesn't appear to favour any particular handicap groups. It's just a little too complicated for most people.

 

[Voyager EMH]

As a handicap secretary I have to embrace the new WHS system. I think we will see some changes with it in the next few years because there are some things about it that don't work very well and cause confusion.

Namely, 2 handicaps on the card, 1 that you need for competiting in the comp, and the other you need to pay attention to for handicap purposes. Confuses the life out of people.

The others are PCC and NS ( not NR that's different).

From what I know and have seen so far I think it's a fair system that doesn't appear to favour any particular handicap groups. It's just a little too complicated for most people.

I would like to see Eng, Ire and Wales adopt the Scottish system of not rounding CH when making the PH calculation as this avoids the disproportionate "lump" of players off 10 in individual strokeplay.

The new system is very complicated for most and far too complicated for some, but will become far less so with time as we learn by using it.