Whites And Yellows

HankMarvin said:
Bear Shouther is one if the poorest holes on the course unlike the 7th hole Wishing well. Don't see the 11th being turned into a par 4 as it would do nothing for the hole
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Re: the 11th. Apparently one of those things that people keep bringing up, and there is room behind the 11th tee to have an elevated tee another few yards back. But would need removal of quite a few trees.

I actually think it would be quite a good risk reward hole for longer hitters, from a tee on the right hand side to potentially cut the corner for a shot at the green. Could potentially bring the green in a bit and have more of a front bunker.
Playing it as a par 4 from the left hand side would be a pretty poor hole.

But like I said, they have a reasonable list of things to do and I believe making changes to that hole is not on the agenda... apart from maybe a few trees to come down at some point.
 
CONGU's currently say:
Par for each hole should be established by the club in relation to length and playing difficulty, within the following ranges (for men):
Par 3 - up to 250
Par 4 - 220 - 500
Par 5 - 440 - 720
Par 6 - 660 +
 
Grant85 said:
Ideally you'd have at least one short and one mid par 3. But your mid iron is another mans wedge. And your driver is another mans mid to long iron.

Ours are 150, 200, 220 and 124 from the whites. Possibly the 220 yarder could be extended and made a short par 4 and it would be a great hole - but there's 1,000 things to spend money on without redesigning a hole that has been there for 100 years.
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If the 220 yarder has been there for 100 years then my guess is that it was originally designed to be a 2 shot hole.
Equipment gains have brought it into range so it's now a 1 shot hole (for some of the membership!).
 
I have said this about our place. Play off the yellow pots through the winter. in essence the white pots are put at the side of the yellows. The difference is massive. Some of the drives in the winter there is no trouble what so ever. 1st of April everything drops back to the whites in a oner. There is no slowly staggering the pots back so you can slowly get used to the difference. It becomes a struggle. Its a good job the fairways are running further than normal.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
Why, just why? I'm guessing huge chunks of the members will just play it as a 4. The pleasure of a good par 3, imo, is to test your iron play, your short irons in particular. Maybe that is too simplistic but that is how I see it. 230yds or 240 uphill is a driver for 90% of amateurs and a driver plus 1 other club for probably 40% (I'm guessing figures here). Where is the fun in those holes?
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This all day, our signature hole has/is being shortened. Before the tee shot was 155yd downhill with a pond to the left. Before that it was another 20yds back 10 yds higher, cat 1 players saying the hole is to difficult. Now it is about 135 playing straight over the pond. Now it is possible with owt from a wedge to a 7 iron to hit the green. i have played it before with a driver. For me there is something seriously wrong with course design if you have to use your driver on a par 3. Distance on a par 3 is a poor excuse as a hazard in making a hole difficult. You use your driver on 14 par four and fives, then have to get it out again coz a par 3 is 200 yd plus. Poor me finks.
 
williamalex1 said:
Our par 3, 5th is 230 yards.There's one at Carluke GC the 12th i think ,240 uphill with around 40 feet elevation.:eek::eek::eek:
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At bellshill? Is that how long that is? I didn’t think it played like it. What length is the 17th. Many a west coast train has been frightened on that hole
 
We're off on a wee tangent with the par 3 stuff but I think it doesn't really matter how long a hole is, it only matters how long it plays

I'm sure we've all stepped up to a par 3 with a 3-4 club wind behind us and feeling a bit like Thor and that's generally much more fun than the opposite of having to take driver on a par 3 when the distance says mid-long iron
 
I really dislike long par 3s where I have to take driver much prefer tricky short par 3s, but I can see what Grant 85 pointed out about lower players having to mix it up.

But as a short hitting senior it’s no fun having to hit driver on par 3s in fact when the winds up sometimes I have to use driver on all par 3s!!!

Think Homer has a tough long par 3 on his course not easy to start a competition
 
Slab said:
We're off on a wee tangent with the par 3 stuff but I think it doesn't really matter how long a hole is, it only matters how long it plays

I'm sure we've all stepped up to a par 3 with a 3-4 club wind behind us and feeling a bit like Thor and that's generally much more fun than the opposite of having to take driver on a par 3 when the distance says mid-long iron
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I have to disagree about the sentence 'how long it plays'. I agree with you otherwise though.

Both par and length are, in themselves, irrelevant. How the hole plays is the issue.

Simple example - 474yd par 4. It can be tight, tree lined, water down one side, bunkers across the front of the green - these are simply factors to be taken into account when playing the hole with the capabilities you have. 6 May be a good score for you - so be it.
However, create a fixed carry from the tee, or to the green and the hole may simply become unplayable for some.
This can happen with only modest increases in the course length for tees - If all the carries from the yellows are 170, and you hit it 180 you can (just about) play the course. Move 6 tees back 20 yds and the course would become completely unplayable (yet the course length would only increase 120yds).
Most courses aren't set up that way - but some are! West Hill springs quickly to mind - Royal Ashdown also.
 
Slab said:
We're off on a wee tangent with the par 3 stuff but I think it doesn't really matter how long a hole is, it only matters how long it plays

I'm sure we've all stepped up to a par 3 with a 3-4 club wind behind us and feeling a bit like Thor and that's generally much more fun than the opposite of having to take driver on a par 3 when the distance says mid-long iron
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Good point.
our 14th is one of the changed holes, it used to be 195 off the yellow (downhill), 177 for the ladies , 200 off the white and 219 off the blue. for most of the ladies they could not reach the green as there was big long slot bunker across the front at 160, it wasn't in play for the men really, the majority of the pin positions where front edge, so the front was the place and anything past the flag you would more than likely putt the ball off the green. Even off the back tee it was at worst a hybrid, but now with the back hump removed, along with the slot bunker. off the whites the last few comps the flag has been at the back, ive lasered it at 232, so have had to take 3 wood and plenty have had to take driver as it was a north wind. prev there was no pin position at the back, plus no longer a bail out short. Oh and ladies still can't reach;)
 
Rlburnside said:
I really dislike long par 3s where I have to take driver much prefer tricky short par 3s, but I can see what Grant 85 pointed out about lower players having to mix it up.

But as a short hitting senior it’s no fun having to hit driver on par 3s in fact when the winds up sometimes I have to use driver on all par 3s!!!

Think Homer has a tough long par 3 on his course not easy to start a competition
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In his area Royal Mid Surrey has a starting 3 over 200 as well. It is what is is. As long as the carry to safety isn't over 200 you just play it the way that suits you - no different to the 470yd uphill par 4 that comes later in the round!
 
duncan mackie said:
I have to disagree about the sentence 'how long it plays'. I agree with you otherwise though.

Both par and length are, in themselves, irrelevant. How the hole plays is the issue.

Simple example - 474yd par 4. It can be tight, tree lined, water down one side, bunkers across the front of the green - these are simply factors to be taken into account when playing the hole with the capabilities you have. 6 May be a good score for you - so be it.
However, create a fixed carry from the tee, or to the green and the hole may simply become unplayable for some.
This can happen with only modest increases in the course length for tees - If all the carries from the yellows are 170, and you hit it 180 you can (just about) play the course. Move 6 tees back 20 yds and the course would become completely unplayable (yet the course length would only increase 120yds).
Most courses aren't set up that way - but some are! West Hill springs quickly to mind - Royal Ashdown also.
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Yeah there’s some carries on this rock that give me the heebie- jeebies standing on the tees, the hole lengths themselves not really an issue even for a short hitter like me but it’s too easy to be out of the hole or scrub the medal score just because of a carry on one or two holes, not fun golf
 
duncan mackie said:
In his area Royal Mid Surrey has a starting 3 over 200 as well. It is what is is. As long as the carry to safety isn't over 200 you just play it the way that suits you - no different to the 470yd uphill par 4 that comes later in the round!
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Some tough holes there, but in a competition I would have shots on the holes so just hope to come out with no worse than bogeys, but golf for me is about enjoyment as well and it’s no fun to constantly use driver on par 3s.
 
Crow said:
If the 220 yarder has been there for 100 years then my guess is that it was originally designed to be a 2 shot hole.
Equipment gains have brought it into range so it's now a 1 shot hole (for some of the membership!).
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I don't think that's the case. It was a James Braid design par 70 and I believe very few changes have been made. It might have been lengthened 10 yards or so.

Obviously they couldn't move much earth back then so the lay of the land dictated the length of many of the holes.
 
Rlburnside said:
I really dislike long par 3s where I have to take driver much prefer tricky short par 3s, but I can see what Grant 85 pointed out about lower players having to mix it up.

But as a short hitting senior it’s no fun having to hit driver on par 3s in fact when the winds up sometimes I have to use driver on all par 3s!!!

Think Homer has a tough long par 3 on his course not easy to start a competition
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We do. It's 229 off the back plates and is SI 10. What about North Hants? They have a 214 yard par 3 for their first and its only SI 14

We have OOB right, a line of trees that creep in around 180 and will block out anything faded, a pond short left and a lot of heavy grass left and right as well as the ground falling right to left by the green which can take the ball towards a red staked hazard or two bunkers. With SI as 10, most will take 4 and move on.

The North Hants one from memory is more of a straight away hole but seemed to play longer than the yardage and has bunkers short right. There are a few trees that could cause issues for anything off line and as many won't get a shot is that a tougher opening. Can't remember if its into the prevailing wind (the first at Royal Ascot tends to play down wind generally)
 
HomerJSimpson said:
We do. It's 229 off the back plates and is SI 10. What about North Hants? They have a 214 yard par 3 for their first and its only SI 14

We have OOB right, a line of trees that creep in around 180 and will block out anything faded, a pond short left and a lot of heavy grass left and right as well as the ground falling right to left by the green which can take the ball towards a red staked hazard or two bunkers. With SI as 10, most will take 4 and move on.

The North Hants one from memory is more of a straight away hole but seemed to play longer than the yardage and has bunkers short right. There are a few trees that could cause issues for anything off line and as many won't get a shot is that a tougher opening. Can't remember if its into the prevailing wind (the first at Royal Ascot tends to play down wind generally)
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Our course record was set again last year and the guy got a bogey at our 220 yard par3. The only bogey of his round. It’s stroke index 16. I have seen many a medal disintegrate on that hole
 
HamiltonGuy said:
Our course record was set again last year and the guy got a bogey at our 220 yard par3. The only bogey of his round. It’s stroke index 16. I have seen many a medal disintegrate on that hole
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Stroke index has no relevance in medal play (nor in course records).
 
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