UK Handicapping system

[LCVreg]

I wonder how many people, like me, are completely dissolutioned by the present Congu system as used in this country? - Most of the rest of the world including the USA are now using the slope system which gives a much fairer insight into handicapping and is so much more realistic in all senses. The Congu system could work if they had not brought so many stipulations in, for instance, Society golfing, but any games now played in a society are not allowed to be incorporated into handicaps. As an instance, I play at my club 0n 12.5, but have played 20 odd society meetings this year, all at recognised courses, and all off measured, yellow and white tees, and if these scores had been allowed into "the system, I would now be playing off 9.8 actual. Although I am a club member, I find it very hard to actually play in any qualifying competitions, so my club handicap is far higher than it should be. I know some say that one has the "supplementary" scores to be able to augment lack of qualifying events, but this is really just an excuse to keep "official". Having an "official" handicap used to be one of the main reasons for joining a golf club, but this is getting less and less so in these climes, and many, indeed like me, are probably not going to join any club next year, as it is in truth, for me not viable. I will worry not about having an "official club handicap", as I will still play over 50 different courses next year, (this year I have played 54 different courses, - including at least ten in the top 100 UK courses). Thankfully, most members clubs have followed the lead of the proprietory clubs and allow all onto their courses, with of course a few natural defences, etiquettes, dress etc etc, and this is the way that things have to proceed.
Another bone of contention, what do we as club members get in return for our "subscription" to the English Golf Union and County Unions? - all I can see is that the EGU earn one hell of a lot of money to squander on their own unelected whims, (eg, it was our money that built "their" course at Woodhall Spa).........EGU and Congu, need to start realising that all is not well, and that both organisations should get their head out of the sand and start listening to normal golfers - both organisations are basically just Quango's and if they do not get into the modern century with things like handicapping systems and supporting all who play golf and not just the privaleged few, they it is certain that others will emerge and offer alternatives.
And one last thing, why do I as once a member of two clubs, have to pay two fees ........
OK Folks, over to you - point one, lets get the slope system in use and soon!!

 

[BTatHome]

I don't see the problem in the system.

Far too many gimmees in society games. Can you really he sure everyone playing society golf observes all the rules ... From what I have seen this is not the case.

If you play competition golf and don't achieve the same scores then what is the difference in your game?

 

[LCVreg]

The problem with the Congu system, well lets have a scenario, - Course A - 18 holes @ 276 yards all par 4 = Par 72 - Course B - 18 holes 470 yards again all par 4 = Par 72 - a 10 handicapper at A would probably be a 18 handicapper at course B, like wise, the other way round and to say that the SSS would equalise this is rubbish. If I as an 12 handicapper at course B went to play at course A in any sort of competition, medal or likewise, yep I would really fancy my chances!
The American slope system would mean that your handicap is adjusted to the course concerned!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

In my experience society days are rarely played off the measured course so can't be taken into account. Should we also take into account bounce games at your club? The bottom line is if you were a true 9.8 h'capper, you'd be playing off 9.8. Why do you want a falsely low h'cap?

 

[LCVreg]

As a journeyman pro, how many amateur society days do you play. Fully understand the thoughts, but In my experience, the Societies I play with are all genuine club members with real handicaps, and to suggest that they are not measured courses is a myth - if that is the case, are the clubs ripping societies off with forward tees then ? - I don't think so! my comments stand, the Congu system needs changing to the slope system and more attention should be given to "non-club" member handicaps - there are less and less members of golf clubs these days and the attitude of both Congu and EGU whilst not the main reason, certainly do not help this!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

As a journeyman pro, how many amateur society days do you play. Fully understand the thoughts, but In my experience, the Societies I play with are all genuine club members with real handicaps, and to suggest that they are not measured courses is a myth - if that is the case, are the clubs ripping societies off with forward tees then ? - I don't think so! my comments stand, the Congu system needs changing to the slope system and more attention should be given to "non-club" member handicaps - there are less and less members of golf clubs these days and the attitude of both Congu and EGU whilst not the main reason, certainly do not help this!

HaHa, Journeyman Pro is a categorisation based on the number of posts I've made on here, it's nothing to do with my golfing ability. I play lots of society events with a society full of club members, many from my own club and some very good players. We have never played an event off the measured course as far as I can remember.

Don't get me wrong, the CONGU system has it's faults but if the only reason you want to change is to bring your h'cap down then it's not the way forward in my opinion

 

[rosecott]

The problem with the Congu system, well lets have a scenario, - Course A - 18 holes @ 276 yards all par 4 = Par 72 - Course B - 18 holes 470 yards again all par 4 = Par 72 - a 10 handicapper at A would probably be a 18 handicapper at course B, like wise, the other way round and to say that the SSS would equalise this is rubbish. If I as an 12 handicapper at course B went to play at course A in any sort of competition, medal or likewise, yep I would really fancy my chances!
The American slope system would mean that your handicap is adjusted to the course concerned!

From your (highly and ludicrously unlikely) figures, course A would be SSS 64 and course B would be SSS at least 76. That is 12 strokes difference in SSS. The reality is that the vast majority of courses lie in the SSS range 70 to 72 so you would be very highly unlikely to have the kind of advantage you imagine at a course with only a small difference in SSS from your own course.

 

[BTatHome]

Playing using SSS rather than CSS just adds another variety to your scores that slope on its own does not solve on its own.

I do believe that playing to my handicap at my own course in a comp is a better accomplishment than playing under my handicap on a society day.

 

[Swinger]

The CONGU system isn't perfect but no handicap system can and will ever be. Personally I really don't have a problem with it.
I also would have thought that while they cannot cut you for each round they could take the cards into consideration for a handicap review but if you medal scores are not overly impressive then the chance of a cut will be a good bit less.

 

[Ethan]

The slope system is one element of the US handicap system, and is essentially a way of relating handicap to course difficulty. The question of whether society scores should be let in is a separate question entirely. It can be done, though. The Volvo Tour events are approved by CONGU for handicap purposes.

The US system also uses course ratings for each course, these roughly being their version of SSS. In my opinion, these are invariably inflated, and are probably the reason that the typical US handicap is a couple of shots higher than a typical UK one.

The US system also allows every round, casual, society or competition, to count. This leads to some dodgy scores being posted.

 

[Bigfoot]

I have played in France on a course with a slope of 136 which is tough.They add shots to our handicaps .If we played without extra shots, we would struggle to play to handicap. When they come over here, we have no mechanism to adjust their handicaps but our standard scratch is 69 off yellow to par of 71. They find it easier to play to handicap.

All clubs in France have an adjustment board to check your playing handicap for the day dependant on the tee used. It deals with the difference in difficulty of a course before you play. Our system gives no help to those playing more difficult courses than their original handicap course or compensate for those with a high handicap from a difficult course playing on an easy course.

I have been an advocate of the change for a long time. It could be done easily. All sets of tees have a standard scratch calculated already and it is usually to 0.1 of a stroke. It is then easy to calculate the new handicap.

 

[USER1999]

For the original poster, you say that you would have been cut from your society rounds. Fine. But, I bet you base this on your score, relative to par. This is a nonsense, as you would have to base it relative to standard scratch. Par means nothing. I bet under the proper congu system, your society handicap would work out near as makes no odds to your current congu one.

 

[rosecott]

The Volvo Tour events are approved by CONGU for handicap purposes.

Ethan

I don't think the Volvo Tour events are on the list of those authorised as CONGU qualifiers.

An extract from their rules would seem to confirm this:

4.4 A competitor’s handicap will be reduced on the basis of one stroke for every two Stableford points scored over 36 in any one round for competitors with a handicap of 10 and above and half a stroke for competitors with a handicap of 9 and below.

4.5 Other handicap adjustments can be made by the organisers on a general play basis.

 

[wull]

The problem with the Congu system, well lets have a scenario, - Course A - 18 holes @ 276 yards all par 4 = Par 72 - Course B - 18 holes 470 yards again all par 4 = Par 72 - a 10 handicapper at A would probably be a 18 handicapper at course B, like wise, the other way round and to say that the SSS would equalise this is rubbish. If I as an 12 handicapper at course B went to play at course A in any sort of competition, medal or likewise, yep I would really fancy my chances!
The American slope system would mean that your handicap is adjusted to the course concerned!

i think 8 shots more is a bit of an exaggeration.it always depends on how well set up the course was,a short par 4 can play as tough as a long one so that theory is not a good one.

 

[patricks148]

Presumably your 9.8 takes into account all the 0.1 you would have gone up when you didn’t shoot under your handicap?

 

[Ethan]

Ethan

I don't think the Volvo Tour events are on the list of those authorised as CONGU qualifiers.

An extract from their rules would seem to confirm this:

4.4 A competitor’s handicap will be reduced on the basis of one stroke for every two Stableford points scored over 36 in any one round for competitors with a handicap of 10 and above and half a stroke for competitors with a handicap of 9 and below.

4.5 Other handicap adjustments can be made by the organisers on a general play basis.

Starting in about September, the Volvo events became qualifying events per CONGU, and handicap adjustments were made as away scores, just like an Open at another club, not on a general play basis. That part of the rules has not been updated.

 

[Doc]

I would love to comment on this thread but it's such a huge block of unbroken text that I simply couldn't be bothered.

Love you

Steve...

 

[sev112]

i think 8 shots more is a bit of an exaggeration.it always depends on how well set up the course was,a short par 4 can play as tough as a long one so that theory is not a good one.

No i think you are wrong there - SSS is fundamentally about distance, and certainly not par. There is a TINY adjustment that is made for difficulty, but it is substantially about distance.

Our course is a short but tough course. The SSS is 3 under for Whites, and 5 under for Yellows. Typically CSS is 1 under the SSS and once in a while 2 under . I have only known it 1 over SSS in 10 years.

It is VERY difficult to get cut, but my handicap travels very well to much longer and much tougher courses.

 

[Imurg]

No i think you are wrong there - SSS is fundamentally about distance, and certainly not par. There is a TINY adjustment that is made for difficulty, but it is substantially about distance.

Our course is a short but tough course. The SSS is 3 under for Whites, and 5 under for Yellows. Typically CSS is 1 under the SSS and once in a while 2 under . I have only known it 1 over SSS in 10 years.

It is VERY difficult to get cut, but my handicap travels very well to much longer and much tougher courses.

CSS can only go down by 1 shot.
It can go up by a maximum of 3 but no lower than 1.

SSS is determined thus.....

A Standard Scratch Score (SSS) is the basis on which unified and accurate
handicapping of members is made. Its determination reflects not only the length
of the course but its difficulty.
The assessment is based on the abilities of a Scratch Golfer, under average
course and weather conditions, playing the designated measured course. The
Scratch Golfer is expected for course assessment purposes to be able to hit a
drive 260 yards, a 3 wood 240 yards, a 7 iron 150 yards and, on average, 2 putt
each green.
The assessment is made by giving consideration to where the Scratch Golfer,
using good course management, would wish to play the ball from, rather than
from a set distance as used under the previous system. Difficulty is determined
using ten Difficulty Factors: Terrain, Fairway Width, Rough Height, Fairway
Bunkers, Out of Bounds, Trees, Water Hazards, Green Approach, Greens and
Green Missed Recoverability. A course architect does not always intend players
to play shots of maximum distance but rather to plot their way around the course
and to avoid the hazards that are put in their way. Some of the best and most
memorable holes are not long but test the player’s course management skills. It
would therefore seem logical to assess courses using this same philosophy. In
addition, a Wind factor has been introduced that takes into account the increased
playing difficulty that this has generally on the golf course. Inland, well protected
courses will experience very little wind, whereas links courses are more exposed
and, as such, will receive a higher rating.

So it's much more than just distance.....

 

[daymond]

It is well worth while looking up slope index on the net to get an idea how they assess courses in the USA.
Their system is computer based in that every golfer on a handicap is required to register and hand in his card which is recorded on a central data base.
Handicaps are not adjusted round by round but on an average over a number of rounds ( I forget how many )
They do not have our stupid system of red tee for ladies, yellow for general play, white for competitions and blue for the odd championship round. Instead they have three four or five tees and recomend which would be suitable for differing handicaps levels.
On balance I think their system is better. It is too late for anything to change here.