Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

[Deleted member 16999]

No one has answered my question yet.


When was the rule actually broken?


The second he disturbed the sand on his intended line or the mintute he started raking to repair damage he did to his intended line?

This is part of the rule.

• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.

‘The “line of play” is the direction that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke, plus a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction. The line of play extends vertically upwards from the ground, but does not extend beyond the hole.’

So I would say as soon as he walked on his line in the bunker he has broke the rule.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

what if the caddie and walked though the bunker and then raked it, what would have been the ruling then?

Still breaking the rule, he’s responsible for his caddies actions.

 

[garyinderry]

That it my interpretation.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Every rule has to involve materiality. If not, everyone would be penalised for not replacing their ball properly on the green. Chances are, most times, when a ball is replaced after being marked it will be a millimeter or fraction of a millimeter away from where it originally was. Same with the bunker. He didn't "improve" the lie, he just restored it, as has already been said.

 

[drdel]

Exactly which Rule in the 2019 'book' are we saying is relevant?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Exactly which Rule in the 2019 'book' are we saying is relevant?

Rule 8.1a in 2019 book, 13.2 under current rules.

 

[Sweep]

It's a very basic rule... how can you not know it? Probably one of the fundamental rules of golf. Otherwise we'd all carry a variety of tools for improving things as we go...

As I am sure you are well aware, most people know about the rule and on this forum the vast majority are experienced golfers. Again, as I am sure you know, the debate is not about the rule but it’s application in this case, if it was fair and if by applying it in this way will it open up other issues like, as in my example, walking ahead of the ball to see if the green is clear from 165yds out. In other words, if you do not intend to hit the ball along the ground and in fact you don’t do so, should you be penalised for walking on the same ground.
I appreciate this doesn’t fit with your poor attempt at pretending you know more than the rest of us but that’s life.

 

[robinthehood]

As I am sure you are well aware, most people know about the rule and on this forum the vast majority are experienced golfers. Again, as I am sure you know, the debate is not about the rule but it’s application in this case, if it was fair and if by applying it in this way will it open up other issues like, as in my example, walking ahead of the ball to see if the green is clear from 165yds out. In other words, if you do not intend to hit the ball along the ground and in fact you don’t do so, should you be penalised for walking on the same ground.
I appreciate this doesn’t fit with your poor attempt at pretending you know more than the rest of us but that’s life.

I don't get your point. Not improving your lie or line is a basic rule. Nothing you're saying changes that .

If you walk in front of your ball and improve your line then yes it's a penalty.

 

[Sweep]

This is part of the rule.

• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.

‘The “line of play” is the direction that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke, plus a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction. The line of play extends vertically upwards from the ground, but does not extend beyond the hole.’

So I would say as soon as he walked on his line in the bunker he has broke the rule.

On that basis you would have to conclude that he breached the rule when he walked on his line, possibly before he got to the bunker. The rule makes reference to both sand and soil. I accept that by walking through the bunker it was easy to see he had pressed down sand, but surely he had done the same on any ground before the bunker.
For me they are penalising him for raking the sand after he had been in the bunker, as the rule states
“A player must not improve or allow to be improved... by any of the following actions... creating or eliminating irregularities of surface”

 

[Roops]

It's not common . If I saw someone walk the line of a chip I'd expect they were probably cheating

So you would never walk to the place on the fairway short of the green where you hope to land your chip and in doing so tread on the intended line (short of the landing spot), maybe once or twice ? Are we saying that treading on the line is ok, as long as you are not trying to improve it ?

 

[Sweep]

I don't get your point. Not improving your lie or line is a basic rule. Nothing you're saying changes that .

If you walk in front of your ball and improve your line then yes it's a penalty.

Yes we know. But as the rule states you are not allowed to improve your line by, among other things, pressing down soil. By walking ahead of your ball to check the green is clear, are you deemed to have improved your line by pressing down soil with your feet, even though it is not in your interests to hit a shot along the ground? Most people wouldn’t think so, but if you follow this case to it’s logical conclusion you would have to say you had. Can you honestly say you have never seen anyone walk ahead of their ball? Can you honestly say you have penalised them for it? If the rule is applied this way, scores will rocket, people will fall out with the game. It’s not logical and most would say it’s unfair.
So as you can see, it’s not the rule but the application that is being debated.

 

[garyinderry]

I would say walking on sand causes an obvious change in the lie for the shot. walking on grass, especially closely mown fairway and light rough would have no such impact on the lie.

 

[Orikoru]

I would say walking on sand causes an obvious change in the lie for the shot. walking on grass, especially closely mown fairway and light rough would have no such impact on the lie.

Walking across the sand on this occasion made absolute no change in lie for his shot, because he was never in the sand.

 

[robinthehood]

So you would never walk to the place on the fairway short of the green where you hope to land your chip and in doing so tread on the intended line (short of the landing spot), maybe once or twice ? Are we saying that treading on the line is ok, as long as you are not trying to improve it ?

No of course not. As I am aware I could fall foul of this rule !!!!!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Yes we know. But as the rule states you are not allowed to improve your line by, among other things, pressing down soil. By walking ahead of your ball to check the green is clear, are you deemed to have improved your line by pressing down soil with your feet, even though it is not in your interests to hit a shot along the ground? Most people wouldn’t think so, but if you follow this case to it’s logical conclusion you would have to say you had. Can you honestly say you have never seen anyone walk ahead of their ball? Can you honestly say you have penalised them for it? If the rule is applied this way, scores will rocket, people will fall out with the game. It’s not logical and most would say it’s unfair.
So as you can see, it’s not the rule but the application that is being debated.

He could of possibly stepped 2-3yds to his left or right, carried out the same actions and not been penalised, his argument that he was caring for the course may of been accepted, but to do it on his line he’s messed up.

 

[robinthehood]

Yes we know. But as the rule states you are not allowed to improve your line by, among other things, pressing down soil. By walking ahead of your ball to check the green is clear, are you deemed to have improved your line by pressing down soil with your feet, even though it is not in your interests to hit a shot along the ground? Most people wouldn’t think so, but if you follow this case to it’s logical conclusion you would have to say you had. Can you honestly say you have never seen anyone walk ahead of their ball? Can you honestly say you have penalised them for it? If the rule is applied this way, scores will rocket, people will fall out with the game. It’s not logical and most would say it’s unfair.
So as you can see, it’s not the rule but the application that is being debated.

How do you apply it in a "fair" way

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Yes we know. But as the rule states you are not allowed to improve your line by, among other things, pressing down soil. By walking ahead of your ball to check the green is clear, are you deemed to have improved your line by pressing down soil with your feet, even though it is not in your interests to hit a shot along the ground? Most people wouldn’t think so, but if you follow this case to it’s logical conclusion you would have to say you had. Can you honestly say you have never seen anyone walk ahead of their ball? Can you honestly say you have penalised them for it? If the rule is applied this way, scores will rocket, people will fall out with the game. It’s not logical and most would say it’s unfair.
So as you can see, it’s not the rule but the application that is being debated.

Surely you walk on a path that’s near your line and near were you intend to land, taking the care you do on a putting green.
Never seen a pro actually stand on a spot they hope to land on, near it? Yes, on it? No.

 

[garyinderry]

He could of possibly stepped 2-3yds to his left or right, carried out the same actions and not been penalised, his argument that he was caring for the course may of been accepted, but to do it on his line he’s messed up.

I would tend to agree with this. his actions on his 'line of play' was his downfall.

He wouldn't even have to say care for the course. he would just have to say it wasn't on his although was he to catch a branch or bunker lip and land in his newly raked sand a few yards off his initial line of play, I would be left scratching my head at this rule tbh.

 

[garyinderry]

Surely you walk on a path that’s near your line and near were you intend to land, taking the care you do on a putting green
Never seen a pro actually stand on a spot they hope to land on, near it? Yes, on it? No.

Sometimes you won't know where you want to land the ball until you climb a slope and survey the green. I'd say this happens regularly.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Sometimes you won't know where you want to land the ball until you climb a slope and survey the green. I'd say this happens regularly.

Exactly, so no one could state you purposely walked on your line.