Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

Wolf

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I think he's been hard doneby and is a case of how the rules can be at times ridiculous. Doesn't improve his line of play whatsoever.
 

Liverpoolphil

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How can that possibly be improving his line of play? I think he's been badly treated. You'll soon need a legal qualification to play tournament golf.
The bunker was in the line of his play - what happened if he chunked his shot and it went into that freshly raked bunker , his lie is potentially better than if he hadn’t raked it . Harsh yes but it’s also a perfect example of slow play - pacing out the shot through a bunker ?!
 

mikejohnchapman

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The bunker was in the line of his play - what happened if he chunked his shot and it went into that freshly raked bunker , his lie is potentially better than if he hadn’t raked it . Harsh yes but it’s also a perfect example of slow play - pacing out the shot through a bunker ?!
You are spot on - he should have known better, especially after Mickelson got done for gardening in front of the tee.

Always thought it was interesting that there is no penalty for taking care of the course by raking a bunker not in the immediate vercinity of your ball but then the ball hits the face and goes into the raked area.

Deserves 2 shots for walking through the bunker to measure the shot IMO
 

HomerJSimpson

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The bunker was in the line of his play - what happened if he chunked his shot and it went into that freshly raked bunker , his lie is potentially better than if he hadn’t raked it . Harsh yes but it’s also a perfect example of slow play - pacing out the shot through a bunker ?!
But until the tour allow GPS devices what other option does he and the caddy have but to pace it out. More a case of the ruling bodies being too scared to embrace modern technology to improve the pace of the game on tour.
 

duncan mackie

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How can that possibly be improving his line of play? I think he's been badly treated. You'll soon need a legal qualification to play tournament golf.
No - you just need either the rule book, or a basic understanding of the rules (and a pair of reading glasses in my case).

This is an extremely basic, and fundamental rule, that wouldn't cause any problems for most posting on here (according to some past posts on raking hazards) so the only sympathy I have with the player is that there has been a lot of discussion (and rule changes) regarding raking bunkers and caring for the course over the last few years so he no doubt put 2 and 2 together whilst thinking about his up coming stroke, and just raked it.

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
  • the position or lie of his ball,
  • the area of his intended stance or swing,
  • his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
  • the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
  • pressing a club on the ground,
  • moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
  • creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
  • removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
  • removing dew, frost or water.
Mentally he may well have in mind exception 2,

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazardprovided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

Which in itself contains the important exception that you can't go tidying up bunkers on your line of play.

Just to close off, whilst the rules would permit the width of the line of play to be interpreted with regard to the players competence there is no such consideration regarding the likelihood of him visiting the area with his next stroke. In this case had he carefully walked through it a few yards one side or the other of his line, and subsequently raked it, he should have been fine...whilst the same action, in the same place, for a 28 handicapper might not.
 

Wolf

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I get the official wording but think it's a ridiculous rule that shows the stuffy side and all that's wrong with golf. Was the bunker raked before he went through it most likely so all he did was leave it as he found it
 

garyinderry

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No - you just need either the rule book, or a basic understanding of the rules (and a pair of reading glasses in my case).

This is an extremely basic, and fundamental rule, that wouldn't cause any problems for most posting on here (according to some past posts on raking hazards) so the only sympathy I have with the player is that there has been a lot of discussion (and rule changes) regarding raking bunkers and caring for the course over the last few years so he no doubt put 2 and 2 together whilst thinking about his up coming stroke, and just raked it.

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
  • the position or lie of his ball,
  • the area of his intended stance or swing,
  • his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
  • the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
  • pressing a club on the ground,
  • moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
  • creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
  • removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
  • removing dew, frost or water.
Mentally he may well have in mind exception 2,

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazardprovided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

Which in itself contains the important exception that you can't go tidying up bunkers on your line of play.

Just to close off, whilst the rules would permit the width of the line of play to be interpreted with regard to the players competence there is no such consideration regarding the likelihood of him visiting the area with his next stroke. In this case had he carefully walked through it a few yards one side or the other of his line, and subsequently raked it, he should have been fine...whilst the same action, in the same place, for a 28 handicapper might not.

Should never be the case. The rules should govern eveyone equally surely.
 

Liverpoolphil

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It’s not stuffy and it’s not the reason why people don’t play golf - why does that always seem the default answer when someone loses out because they broke a rule ( no matter how trivial it may seem )

It happens in all sports - every single sport has rules that some may see as trivial or nonsense, it’s not just limited to golf

The players especially the top pros should know the rules and if there is any issue have an official at hand

What would people think if raking the bunker helped the player win ? Is it trivial then ?
 

Imurg

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Whilst I agree with the ruling.....
There's nothing to stop him pacing out the yardage, therefore nothing stopping him walking through the bunker.
All he is then doing is returning the bunker to its original state.
This could have been part of his thinking...
 

Orikoru

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It’s not stuffy and it’s not the reason why people don’t play golf - why does that always seem the default answer when someone loses out because they broke a rule ( no matter how trivial it may seem )

It happens in all sports - every single sport has rules that some may see as trivial or nonsense, it’s not just limited to golf
Golf has vastly more ridiculous rules than other sports. I don't see how this can be argued really.

The players especially the top pros should know the rules and if there is any issue have an official at hand

What would people think if raking the bunker helped the player win ? Is it trivial then ?
How could it possibly help him win? It was raked before he walked through it, so he returned it to it's previous condition. Also, I'm fairly certain he was planning to avoid the bunker by chipping over it - had he duffed his chip into the bunker that would have more than likely cost him a shot, not helped him win because he 'improved the lie' before going in there for god's sake.
 

Liverpoolphil

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Golf has vastly more ridiculous rules than other sports. I don't see how this can be argued really.
Really ? Lots of sports have ridiculous rules

How can you judge which sport has the “most” over another sport

How could it possibly help him win? It was raked before he walked through it, so he returned it to it's previous condition. Also, I'm fairly certain he was planning to avoid the bunker by chipping over it - had he duffed his chip into the bunker that would have more than likely cost him a shot, not helped him win because he 'improved the lie' before going in there for god's sake.
How do you know it was raked perfectly before he went in ? Maybe there was a stone or some animal foot print - the sand could have been a bit more compact so if he did dunk it into the bunker and he could have got a poor lie - freshly raked and nice and fluffy - a better lie.

All sort of scenarios but the simple thing is the bunker is in his line of the shot and he then adjusted a potential lie in a Hazard.
 

Orikoru

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Really ? Lots of sports have ridiculous rules

How can you judge which sport has the “most” over another sport



How do you know it was raked perfectly before he went in ? Maybe there was a stone or some animal foot print - the sand could have been a bit more compact so if he did dunk it into the bunker and he could have got a poor lie - freshly raked and nice and fluffy - a better lie.

All sort of scenarios but the simple thing is the bunker is in his line of the shot and he then adjusted a potential lie in a Hazard.
But if he didn't rake it he might have improved his lie by the same token - let's say he flattened a big ridge or two that had been formed in the sand. It's all ifs and buts, the point is he gained zero advantage because he never went in the sodding bunker. He obviously wasn't trying to gain an advantage either.
 

anotherdouble

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Golf has vastly more ridiculous rules than other sports. I don't see how this can be argued really.


How could it possibly help him win? It was raked before he walked through it, so he returned it to it's previous condition. Also, I'm fairly certain he was planning to avoid the bunker by chipping over it - had he duffed his chip into the bunker that would have more than likely cost him a shot, not helped him win because he 'improved the lie' before going in there for god's sake.
What you seem to be doing is relating this to a pro tournament and saying it’s stupid. These are the rules of golf. It is one rule for everybody. Your average club golfer may not be adapt at getting over an average club bunker with little sand, compact sand, unraked etc. Club golfer then decides to go measuring through the bunker and rakes after. Possibly then improving future lies.
 

Crow

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Golf has vastly more ridiculous rules than other sports. I don't see how this can be argued really.


How could it possibly help him win? It was raked before he walked through it, so he returned it to it's previous condition. Also, I'm fairly certain he was planning to avoid the bunker by chipping over it - had he duffed his chip into the bunker that would have more than likely cost him a shot, not helped him win because he 'improved the lie' before going in there for god's sake.
Stop playing the stupid game then, simple.

IMHO none of the rules of golf are ridiculous, if you look deeper into the reason behind them then they all have a sound logic and principle, primarily to make the game fair for all competitors.
Not everyone might agree with all of them, playing out of divots being one that springs to mind (I believe they have it correct), but they have developed over a long period of time (and continue to develop) to cover the many situations that arise on courses across the world.

Rules need to be black and white, any grey area can be twisted to gain an unfair advantage (what constitutes a divot for example!) by those who wish to do so.
 

Liverpoolphil

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But if he didn't rake it he might have improved his lie by the same token - let's say he flattened a big ridge or two that had been formed in the sand. It's all ifs and buts, the point is he gained zero advantage because he never went in the sodding bunker. He obviously wasn't trying to gain an advantage either.
Irrelevant - doesn’t matter if he was trying or not , the simple fact is the Hazard was in the line of his shot.

The rules are there for a reason - all sports have them and it’s the players responsibility to adhere to them
 
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