Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

[Deleted member 15344]

No, they should have applied common sense and said "it would be poor form to penalise him for such a bloody stupid rule when he gained no advantage from it anyway" and everyone could have got on with their lives.

Just imagine if they'd have done that, do you think anyone would have even brought it up? Would there have been outrage that nobody penalised him for 'improving his lie'? I doubt it very much - I firmly believe that nobody would have batted an eye. The fact is their application of the rule has prompted news articles, such as the one linked in this topic, stating how it's a 'bizarre' rule and how hard done by the player is to have been penalised. If it was the other way around, I don't believe we would have seen articles saying how he got away with a flagrant disregard of the rules - at worst we might have seen one or two tweets from those of the more pedantic persuasion.

It’s been said to you plenty of times each player must be treated equally and fairly - to do that then the rules must be followed to the letter - referees and players can’t decide upon themselves to ignore rules because even though they broke a rule an advantage wasn’t gained - got to ensure integrity and fairness within the game

Would you when playing with someone in a comp who then broke a rule but gained no advantage - would you then allow that rule break to be ignored ?

Rules are there for a reason - we are a sport that self governs and everyone has the responsibility to follow those rules

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No, they should have applied common sense and said "it would be poor form to penalise him for such a bloody stupid rule when he gained no advantage from it anyway" and everyone could have got on with their lives.

Just imagine if they'd have done that, do you think anyone would have even brought it up? Would there have been outrage that nobody penalised him for 'improving his lie'? I doubt it very much - I firmly believe that nobody would have batted an eye. The fact is their application of the rule has prompted news articles, such as the one linked in this topic, stating how it's a 'bizarre' rule and how hard done by the player is to have been penalised. If it was the other way around, I don't believe we would have seen articles saying how he got away with a flagrant disregard of the rules - at worst we might have seen one or two tweets from those of the more pedantic persuasion.

And poor form to ignore a rule break, the officials don’t make the rules up, they simply apply them.
Imagine the uproar that would of happened if officials can now decide which rules are “actual” rules and which rules don’t make “common sense” and they can waive them.

 

[Orikoru]

It’s been said to you plenty of times each player must be treated equally and fairly - to do that then the rules must be followed to the letter - referees and players can’t decide upon themselves to ignore rules because even though they broke a rule an advantage wasn’t gained - got to ensure integrity and fairness within the game

Would you when playing with someone in a comp who then broke a rule but gained no advantage - would you then allow that rule break to be ignored ?

Rules are there for a reason - we are a sport that self governs and everyone has the responsibility to follow those rules

Greatly depends on what it was. If it was a daft rule like this one then of course I would ignore it.

You talk as if showing fairness and applying common sense are two opposing and mutually exclusive entities. I don't think they have to be. I would expect them to show the same consideration to any golfer that I expect them to have shown Petrozzi.

 

[User 99]

There are some holier than thou roasters in this topic

 

[Orikoru]

And poor form to ignore a rule break, the officials don’t make the rules up, they simply apply them.
Imagine the uproar that would of happened if officials can now decide which rules are “actual” rules and which rules don’t make “common sense” and they can waive them.

It's called leniency and interpretation. To take an example from another sport, recently a Leicester player was booked for revealing a message in support of the chairman who had died. Most people's opinion was that the ref should have turned a blind eye rather than applying the letter of the law in that instance, because of the circumstances. If the ref had have done that, nobody would have lambasted him for not booking the guy for taking his shirt off. This is the same deal here.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Greatly depends on what it was. If it was a daft rule like this one then of course I would ignore it.

You talk as if showing fairness and applying common sense are two opposing and mutually exclusive entities. I don't think they have to be. I would expect them to show the same consideration to any golfer that I expect them to have shown Petrozzi.

Who decides if it’s a daft rule ? You ? What if the next person decides it’s not daft and someone is rightly punished for it - you then have two players both breaking a rule but being treated differently- no longer equal or fair.

We have seen in lots of other sports how rules are interpreted differently by differing officials using “common sense” and their judgment - and you are left with weekly instances of teams/players treated differently for the same offence

Thankfully golf rules are black and white and it’s every single person’s responsibility to follow those rules - if you allow a rule break to be ignored you have failed in your responsibility as a player and ruined the integrity of the competition and sport

If you can’t do your basic responsibility in regards the rules then you shouldn’t play a single competition because you couldn’t be trusted

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The difficulty here is that some are looking for logic in the rules. In some cases there are not. The golfer in this instance did not gain from his actions, he did not attempt to gain from his actions. He broke a rule so he is punished but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the question, 'if the golfer gains no advantage and no golfer is affected by their action then why does the rule exist?' Rules lovers may not read it that way but to the non golfer and perhaps to golfers who have come via other sports with a less complicated rule book it does not make golf look good at times, too many times.

We only know he had no advantage through hindsight, what if the next time somebody does see an issue with a bunker on their line and goes through the motion of pacing it out through the bunker in case they duff their shot and ensure they get a good lie? How do the rules officials spot the difference, neither player intends to go in the bunker, but both have entered the bunker prior to taking the shot for different reasons.

 

[Orikoru]

Who decides if it’s a daft rule ? You ? What if the next person decides it’s not daft and someone is rightly punished for it - you then have two players both breaking a rule but being treated differently- no longer equal or fair.

We have seen in lots of other sports how rules are interpreted differently by differing officials using “common sense” and their judgment - and you are left with weekly instances of teams/players treated differently for the same offence

Thankfully golf rules are black and white and it’s every single person’s responsibility to follow those rules - if you allow a rule break to be ignored you have failed in your responsibility as a player and ruined the integrity of the competition and sport

I'd wager that a good 90% of golfers had no idea this was even a rule until this incident occurred.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It's called leniency and interpretation. To take an example from another sport, recently a Leicester player was booked for revealing a message in support of the chairman who had died. Most people's opinion was that the ref should have turned a blind eye rather than applying the letter of the law in that instance, because of the circumstances. If the ref had have done that, nobody would have lambasted him for not booking the guy for taking his shirt off. This is the same deal here.

No it’s not, in both circumstances the officials carried out the correct action, regardless of the outcry.

 

[duncan mackie]

The difficulty here is that some are looking for logic in the rules. In some cases there are not. The golfer in this instance did not gain from his actions, he did not attempt to gain from his actions. He broke a rule so he is punished but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask the question, 'if the golfer (couldn't) gains no advantage and no golfer (could be )is affected by their action then why does the rule exist?' Rules lovers may not read it that way but to the non golfer and perhaps to golfers who have come via other sports with a less complicated rule book it does not make golf look good at times, too many times.

Add in the edits above and I would suggest that the rule wouldn't exist.

The issue some people seem to have is with this distinction.

 

[Sweep]

Who decides if it’s a daft rule ? You ? What if the next person decides it’s not daft and someone is rightly punished for it - you then have two players both breaking a rule but being treated differently- no longer equal or fair.

We have seen in lots of other sports how rules are interpreted differently by differing officials using “common sense” and their judgment - and you are left with weekly instances of teams/players treated differently for the same offence

Thankfully golf rules are black and white and it’s every single person’s responsibility to follow those rules - if you allow a rule break to be ignored you have failed in your responsibility as a player and ruined the integrity of the competition and sport

If you can’t do your basic responsibility in regards the rules then you shouldn’t play a single competition because you couldn’t be trusted

There is nothing wrong in debating the merits or otherwise of a rule. That’s all we are doing here. No-one is advocating breaking rules so there is no need for an over reaction by telling people if they can’t do their basic responsibility they shouldn’t play a comp because they can’t be trusted.
We all know who makes the rules. Some are just questioning this particular rule due to this unfortunate circumstance.
Clearly golf rules are not black and white, otherwise there would be no such discussion here or on the Rules of Golf thread or indeed any need for countless decisions on the rules.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

There are some holier than thou roasters in this topic

More trolling mate? There’s plenty of rules I dislike in Golf, but its strength is the rules, none of this pick an choose which ones don’t suit.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There is nothing wrong in debating the merits or otherwise of a rule. That’s all we are doing here. No-one is advocating breaking rules so there is no need for an over reaction by telling people if they can’t do their basic responsibility they shouldn’t play a comp because they can’t be trusted.
We all know who makes the rules. Some are just questioning this particular rule due to this unfortunate circumstance.
Clearly golf rules are not black and white, otherwise there would be no such discussion here or on the Rules of Golf thread or indeed any need for countless decisions on the rules.

When someone states they would ignore a rule if they think it’s daft then I think it’s right that the person shouldn’t be near competitions - it’s not the players choice to pick and chose what rules to ignore

 

[Sweep]

So, I have read the rule again and still waiting for a reasonable response to my genuine question.
The rule says I must not improve my line of play by - among other things - pressing down loose soil.
I am about to hit into a green 165yds away. I walk ahead of my ball on a line to the green to check the green is clear. I take a 7 iron and hit the ball, airborne all the way on to the green.
Can anyone be sure I have not pressed down loose soil in my action of walking ahead of my ball on a line to the green and therefore have I improved my line of play?

 

[User 99]

More trolling mate? There’s plenty of rules I dislike in Golf, but its strength is the rules, none of this pick an choose which ones don’t suit.

No it's not trolling but come on, have you read all the replies ? Particularity the ones from one very prominent poster on here.

In our rounds during the season I have seen and often overlooked rule breaches, you know why, cause in the grand scheme of things a particular breach I overlook will have no effect upon the outcome of the winners circle, some of the posters in this topic would have their playing partners up before the committee for the slightest infringement, or so it seems.

Do I overlook every rule breach, definitely no, I informed my PP at the weekend to replace his ball on the path when he thought he could get a lift from it, and we only play our own sweep between us 4 in the winter.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

In this case would the common sense approach not suggest that a penalty is only applied when he has gained the advantage? OR if its obvious that he is pacing through the bunker to potentially gain a better lie on the next shot should he duff into the bunker

How do you prove it?

 

[Orikoru]

When someone states they would ignore a rule if they think it’s daft then I think it’s right that the person shouldn’t be near competitions - it’s not the players choice to pick and chose what rules to ignore

Haha! As I said already, 90% of us could have watched that incident occur live and not had a clue he'd even broken a rule. If I saw someone break a rule that makes an actual difference then it's a different story.

 

[Orikoru]

No it’s not, in both circumstances the officials carried out the correct action, regardless of the outcry.

So you agree with Gray being punished for showing his support to the dead. Heartless man. And you with a poppy avatar as well!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

No it's not trolling but come on, have you read all the replies ? Particularity the ones from one very prominent poster on here.

In our rounds during the season I have seen and often overlooked rule breaches, you know why, cause in the grand scheme of things a particular breach I overlook will have no effect upon the outcome of the winners circle, some of the posters in this topic would have their playing partners up before the committee for the slightest infringement, or so it seems.

Do I overlook every rule breach, definitely no, I informed my PP at the weekend to replace his ball on the path when he thought he could get a lift from it, and we only play our own sweep between us 4 in the winter.

Not getting into the game of playing the poster and not the post.

Back to this thread, very tough call, bloke has made, what looks like, a genuine innocent mistake, the implication of turning a blind eye to this for him and for one other is massive, I fully agree with the officials actions as they have no choice, if, however, this rule being highlighted to the authorities forces a change then all well and good, the game is trying to simplify and evolve all the time, but you still can’t allow different officials or competitions to pick and choose which rules to enforce.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

So you agree with Gray being punished for showing his support to the dead. Heartless man. And you with a poppy avatar as well!

Yes, just like the Puel does and plenty of other Leics players and fans, it’s only the snowflakes that don’t.