Tour school two stroke penalty...ouch.

[Orikoru]

I understand that the rules need to be set in stone, but when it comes to application of the rules, why can't they use some common sense? He disturbed and then re-raked a bunker, and subsequently his ball never went in said bunker, thus he gained no advantage and no penalty needed to be applied. If he had have duffed it into the bunker after raking, then by all means have the conversation then. What's the need otherwise? It's as if golf is still being managed by 85 year-old-duffers pouring over the dusty scrolls of the rulebook with their monocles, just itching to punish players for something nondescript.

 

[duncan mackie]

I understand that the rules need to be set in stone, but when it comes to application of the rules, why can't they use some common sense? He disturbed and then re-raked a bunker, and subsequently his ball never went in said bunker, thus he gained no advantage and no penalty needed to be applied. If he had have duffed it into the bunker after raking, then by all means have the conversation then. What's the need otherwise? It's as if golf is still being managed by 85 year-old-duffers pouring over the dusty scrolls of the rulebook with their monocles, just itching to punish players for something nondescript.

The fundamental principle of the rules is equity.

What this means is that as far as possible everybody would interpret every situation in the same way.

This overrides concepts of fairness and common sense ie you do what the rules tell you because that's what everybody else will do in that situation.

It's a simple concept and has absolutely nothing to do with dusty scrolls and old duffers.

 

[Sweep]

So if he walks forward to pace out the distance and there is no bunker there and then walks back, plays his shot airborne, has he improved his line then? Can anyone say with any certainty that he hasn’t pressed down loose soil by the action of pacing out the yardage?
What if a player walks forward to try to see over a hill. Jumps up and down a few times to try to see the flag?
If so and we start applying this to everybody, scores are going to rocket.

 

[garyinderry]

I suppose its the hazard he has altered.

 

[drdel]

The fundamental principle of the rules is equity.

What this means is that as far as possible everybody would interpret every situation in the same way.

This overrides concepts of fairness and common sense ie you do what the rules tell you because that's what everybody else will do in that situation.

It's a simple concept and has absolutely nothing to do with dusty scrolls and old duffers.

But, thankfully I live in the real world: not Orwell''s where humans do not have the right/capability for rational thought. 'Logic' is usually applied because a totally rigid Rule Based society is devoid of context and a recipe for anarchy. Hence Police have a degree of discretion. Juries and judges work on the basis of probability because context and evidence is everything. I see absolutely no reason why a simple sport like golf should be any different.

The context is everything - in this case there was no unfairness, no gain and no loss by anyone; tis just an example of pedantry where the punishment is out of all proportion to the 'crime'.

We have plenty of examples in golf where 'some' players have 'got away with it'. Just look at who has had penalties for time keeping - generally not the high profile celebrities!! Rules officials also make sensible calls when a players needs to make a drop on a severe slope by a hazard. Players who don't happen to be a TV focus group also come into this group.

 

[Sweep]

I suppose its the hazard he has altered.

But the rule makes no reference to a hazard. I guess the sand in the bunker makes it obvious sand has been disturbed but my original point still stands. By walking forward how can anyone be certain loose soil was not pressed down? By jumping up and down to try to see the flag, surely ground has been pressed down.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Scenario.

You hook a tee shot onto the adjacent hole, which will be the next hole on your round. Your ball lands on the far side of a fairway bunker which as you walk past, you notice is unraked with footprints in, so after playing your shot, you do some housekeeping and tidy the bunker up (rake it).

You proceed to finish the hole you are playing and move onto the next tee, you then hit your tee shot - straight at the green, but it fails to carry the bunker that you have just raked.


Is it a penalty?

 

[Imurg]

It's not as the rules permit you to perform 'housekeeping' away from your particular playing area.
But I see your train of thought....

 

[Orikoru]

But, thankfully I live in the real world: not Orwell''s where humans do not have the right/capability for rational thought. 'Logic' is usually applied because a totally rigid Rule Based society is devoid of context and a recipe for anarchy. Hence Police have a degree of discretion. Juries and judges work on the basis of probability because context and evidence is everything. I see absolutely no reason why a simple sport like golf should be any different.

The context is everything - in this case there was no unfairness, no gain and no loss by anyone; tis just an example of pedantry where the punishment is out of all proportion to the 'crime'.

We have plenty of examples in golf where 'some' players have 'got away with it'. Just look at who has had penalties for time keeping - generally not the high profile celebrities!! Rules officials also make sensible calls when a players needs to make a drop on a severe slope by a hazard. Players who don't happen to be a TV focus group also come into this group.

Fantastic post. The way I see it, we always get the same divide on this forum (and presumably, golf as a whole if we take this a microcosm) - the old boys who say the rules must be obeyed and never questioned because it is written, and the more progressive thinkers among us who say, why can't we apply logic to it? Why can't we view the rules through a prism of common sense?

 

[TheJezster]

I read this, this morning, I found it to be staggering frankly. I really feel for him, I think the punishment is far and above what the 'crime' was.

Yes, I understand 'rules are there for a reason' etc, but some either shouldn't be or at least have common sense applied.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Fantastic post. The way I see it, we always get the same divide on this forum (and presumably, golf as a whole if we take this a microcosm) - the old boys who say the rules must be obeyed and never questioned because it is written, and the more progressive thinkers among us who say, why can't we apply logic to it? Why can't we view the rules through a prism of common sense?

Because common sense doesn’t always mean equal to all and it brings a judgments call based on human side

What if someone decided - Nah I wont penalise him for that but then the next referee says - Yep that’s a rule break so you are punished- Black or White no grey

We already have massive issues in football with referees make judgment calls and different referees make different calls based on the same ruling and it’s clear it’s not fair to all

At least with golf you have them in black and white and take away human judgment on most and that way the game is fair and equal to all

Bringing in stuff about old guard etc is nonsense - maybe the more experienced golfers are happy to follow the rules of the game accept any punishment where as the new breed want to find ways around it so the game is easier for them

The pro is question should have used his own common sense and made sure his actions weren’t going to break a rule - ie taking responsibility for his own actions

Golf on the whole is self governing and for that we all need to play by the same book

 

[Imurg]

Fantastic post. The way I see it, we always get the same divide on this forum (and presumably, golf as a whole if we take this a microcosm) - the old boys who say the rules must be obeyed and never questioned because it is written, and the more progressive thinkers among us who say, why can't we apply logic to it? Why can't we view the rules through a prism of common sense?

In many respects I think like you do on this but...
Imagine for a moment that this guy didn't walk forward through the bunker, just past it
Imagine there were already unraked footprints in there, on his direct line.
Should he be able to take those prints away before playing?
Not of you follow the basic premise of Golf which is to Play the course as you find it, if you can't then do what is fair and to know what is fair you must know the rules.
You can't pick your ball up, repair the divot it's in and replace it.
You can't pick your ball up in the sand,smooth it over and place it back, just as you cant, in this case, rake prints in a bunker that's on your line just in case you land in it.
You can't cut down a tree because it might be in your way.
You can't use a freeze gun to ice up a pond just in case you land in it...

He's a young Pro. He got his lines crossed as to when you can and can't take a bunker. Simple mistake.
Simple, although a lot of the rules are complicated - there are times when you can and to es when you can't...
It shouldn't be like this - you either can or you can't.
Any other way leads to confusion.

 

[3offTheTee]

Expect at that level he would have a yardage chart to the front of the green. Certainly a yardage chart to the green from the bunker.

Pace out to the bunker, add the distance to the front of the green. Look at the pin positions for the day. E.g.12 on 8 from left edge.

Add the 3 together. Get up and down in 2 and qualify. Simple

 

[Orikoru]

In many respects I think like you do on this but...
Imagine for a moment that this guy didn't walk forward through the bunker, just past it
Imagine there were already unraked footprints in there, on his direct line.
Should he be able to take those prints away before playing?
Not of you follow the basic premise of Golf which is to Play the course as you find it, if you can't then do what is fair and to know what is fair you must know the rules.
You can't pick your ball up, repair the divot it's in and replace it.
You can't pick your ball up in the sand,smooth it over and place it back, just as you cant, in this case, rake prints in a bunker that's on your line just in case you land in it.
You can't cut down a tree because it might be in your way.
You can't use a freeze gun to ice up a pond just in case you land in it...

He's a young Pro. He got his lines crossed as to when you can and can't take a bunker. Simple mistake.
Simple, although a lot of the rules are complicated - there are times when you can and to es when you can't...
It shouldn't be like this - you either can or you can't.
Any other way leads to confusion.

At the risk of opening up a new can of worms, the bunkers should be raked before you get there anyway - if it isn't, and you go in there, then tough luck. You obviously can't rake it after you've gone into it. But if you were chipping over a bunker and you see it hadn't been raked, I think you should be allowed to rake it. That's just common decency and fairness. The rules are stupid in this regard, I've no idea why they say you can't.

Under winter rules you can move your ball out of a divot easy enough.

Yeah he made a mistake but how many people know the rule he broke?? I would never pace through a bunker, but if someone I was playing with did that and then raked it and chipped over it I wouldn't have batted an eyelid, much less tell him he's having 2 penalty shots! I mean christ, just picturing that seems ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think we should remember the guy involved has not moaned or twisted.
He’s accepted it was his fault and moved on.
Very harsh lesson at that stage, but hopefully it will make him stronger in his future.

 

[pokerjoke]

Stop playing the stupid game then, simple.

IMHO none of the rules of golf are ridiculous, if you look deeper into the reason behind them then they all have a sound logic and principle, primarily to make the game fair for all competitors.
Not everyone might agree with all of them, playing out of divots being one that springs to mind (I believe they have it correct), but they have developed over a long period of time (and continue to develop) to cover the many situations that arise on courses across the world.

Rules need to be black and white, any grey area can be twisted to gain an unfair advantage (what constitutes a divot for example!) by those who wish to do so.

If none of the rules are ridiculous why are some being change then.
If they are being change for the better.

 

[Orikoru]

I think we should remember the guy involved has not moaned or twisted.
He’s accepted it was his fault and moved on.
Very harsh lesson at that stage, but hopefully it will make him stronger in his future.

Well he doesn't have much choice does he? That doesn't stop us debating the merits of such a decision.

 

[duncan mackie]

So if he walks forward to pace out the distance and there is no bunker there and then walks back, plays his shot airborne, has he improved his line then? Can anyone say with any certainty that he hasn’t pressed down loose soil by the action of pacing out the yardage?
What if a player walks forward to try to see over a hill. Jumps up and down a few times to try to see the flag?
If so and we start applying this to everybody, scores are going to rocket.

Have you actually read the rule?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Well he doesn't have much choice does he? That doesn't stop us debating the merits of such a decision.

Where in my post do I say it shouldn’t be debated?
But if you want to go down that path, then guess what, there’s no merit to your point of view, you’re wrong, stop bitching and move on!

 

[duncan mackie]

Fantastic post. The way I see it, we always get the same divide on this forum (and presumably, golf as a whole if we take this a microcosm) - the old boys who say the rules must be obeyed and never questioned because it is written, and the more progressive thinkers among us who say, why can't we apply logic to it? Why can't we view the rules through a prism of common sense?

Your ageism is shinning through again.

If you can't discerned the difference between obeying rules and questioning them it's no wonder you post this way. Some people have come to their present understanding of the rules through questioning them for decades.....and listening to the views and opinions given.