The Footie Thread

[Orikoru]

Yeah - the difference between childcare or street level law enforcement and refereeing Premier league football is about £70,000 to £150,000 per year and the potential of actual harm.
And I'm not interested in your view; this doesn't end until you agree that I've won this discussion.

The problem is, if he gets sacked he'll only turn up on Sky Sports in a few years. They'll employ anyone.

 

[RichA]

The problem is, if he gets sacked he'll only turn up on Sky Sports in a few years. They'll employ anyone.

Or Forest will give him a consultancy role.

 

[PaulMdj]

The first video, probably a ban and demotion.

The second video, maybe it’s an age thing or the circles I move in, sacked on the spot if proven it’s an illegal drug, absolutely no sympathy with drug use.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

That's fair. I would still like to see him given a chance to restart his career at a lower level, that's all.

I don’t think many will be willing to employ him

Before the second video he prob would have walked into a job in Saudi or MLS etc

 

[Bunkermagnet]

OK - a different example...
Suppose a £12 per hour childcare assistant at your daughter's pre-school was on video snorting drugs and describing her customers with highly perjorative nouns.
Demotion or sacking and barred from similar employment?
[and I hope you know we're having a light hearted chat, not an argument ]

It seems you can be an alleged under age sex abuser and trafficer but still be given the post of Attourney General by a President elect.....

 

[PJ87]

His point is very valid. If the person in question was an actor/ess or musician/singer the wave of sympathy and empathy would be huge. Because he's a referee he's treated differently.
I am very anti any drugs, but lets be brutally honest...we probably, all of us, have had contact with someone relatively close to us who has done coke, and we don't know about it.
It is as common as dogs mess on the pavement.

100%

I know the main reason I've never done drugs isn't because I'm a angel it's just my job does random drug tests and considering I've been there since I was 16 I've never wanted to risk my career for the sake of drugs

 

[GB72]

From my experience of the legal profession, there are people making much more serious decisions than a referee who do coke and make derogatory comments using strong language.

Depending on the findings, this is a person who needs help and counselling and a chance to rebuild his career, albeit that there are trust barriers to rebuild. It is sadly part of the entitled behaviour of sports fans in general that they feel that they can call for anyone to be sacked and their career destroyed. As I said, the findings of the investigation are vital but if this is a repentant person who has gone off the rails for whatever reason then there should be calls to help and assist and not destroy. Sadly, these videos were released to destroy someone's life and not get them the help they may need and that is pretty depressing to think that someone would do that.

 

[PaulMdj]

From my experience of the legal profession, there are people making much more serious decisions than a referee who do coke and make derogatory comments using strong language.

Depending on the findings, this is a person who needs help and counselling and a chance to rebuild his career, albeit that there are trust barriers to rebuild. It is sadly part of the entitled behaviour of sports fans in general that they feel that they can call for anyone to be sacked and their career destroyed. As I said, the findings of the investigation are vital but if this is a repentant person who has gone off the rails for whatever reason then there should be calls to help and assist and not destroy. Sadly, these videos were released to destroy someone's life and not get them the help they may need and that is pretty depressing to think that someone would do that.

So no responsibility on the individual for doing the drugs and saying what he said?

As I said before, the first video is not sackable for me, but illegal drug taking is, he’s not some kid, he’s a mature responsible bloke who only has himself to blame for putting himself in this position.

It is irrelevant to me him being a Referee, any person in the same situation caught taking drugs should be sacked from their job.

Obviously it needs to be proved it was an illegal drug he snorted and not just making a daft video to wind people up.

 

[GB72]

So no responsibility on the individual for doing the drugs and saying what he said?

As I said before, the first video is not sackable for me, but illegal drug taking is, he’s not some kid, he’s a mature responsible bloke who only has himself to blame for putting himself in this position.

It is irrelevant to me him being a Referee, any person in the same situation caught taking drugs should be sacked from their job.

Obviously it needs to be proved it was an illegal drug he snorted and not just making a daft video to wind people up.

Sadly drug taking is rife in no end high pressure jobs. Understanding and rehabilitation should be the way forward as well as looking at what caused the issue to start in the first place.

 

[PaulMdj]

Sadly drug taking is rife in no end high pressure jobs. Understanding and rehabilitation should be the way forward as well as looking at what caused the issue to start in the first place.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, I don’t doubt what you say, but I would have a zero tolerance policy to drug taking.

The only understanding is what the user will face if they are caught.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

There needs to be some responsiblity on the person himself - if he has taken drugs then that’s his choice and he has to deal with the consequences of that choice

 

[Hobbit]

The PGMOL will have an HR dept, either in house or outsourced. The company handbook will mirror the handbook of 99.9% of handbooks you’ll see in the U.K.

There will be a policy about social media and there will be a policy about the use of banned substances. There will also be a policy about gross misconduct and bringing the company into disrepute. Demotion for the first vid? Well thanks very much for palming him off on the teams in the lower leagues.. that’s just arrogant. Maybe we don’t want him either. You keep him. But that’s just emotion talking.

The second vid brings competency into the equation. How many matches has he reffed, or may ref going forward, in which drugs use coloured his decisions? The issue is trust.

And then there is the overarching issue of bring the PGMOL into disrepute.

Course of action; exercise the duty of care. Counselling and make sure he’s clean. That satisfies the company’s responsibilities. Then sack him. No if’s no but’s, sack him.

 

[GB72]

I have not read my firm's social media policy etc so would be interested to hear from those in the know how it works. If you are recorded in a private situation by a third party and that video is posted on social media without your knowledge, are you in breach of the policy for being posted or does the post need to be something that you have posted or authorised yourself.

Not having a dig with this point, I just really do not know where the culpability lies if a private conversation is published on social media without consent.

 

[Orikoru]

The PGMOL will have an HR dept, either in house or outsourced. The company handbook will mirror the handbook of 99.9% of handbooks you’ll see in the U.K.

There will be a policy about social media and there will be a policy about the use of banned substances. There will also be a policy about gross misconduct and bringing the company into disrepute. Demotion for the first vid? Well thanks very much for palming him off on the teams in the lower leagues.. that’s just arrogant. Maybe we don’t want him either. You keep him. But that’s just emotion talking.

The second vid brings competency into the equation. How many matches has he reffed, or may ref going forward, in which drugs use coloured his decisions? The issue is trust.

And then there is the overarching issue of bring the PGMOL into disrepute.

Course of action; exercise the duty of care. Counselling and make sure he’s clean. That satisfies the company’s responsibilities. Then sack him. No if’s no but’s, sack him.

I think it's a huge leap to suggest he would have reffed games on gear. That's like seeing him drink a pint in an evening and asking how many Premier League games he must have drunk for.

 

[Hobbit]

I have not read my firm's social media policy etc so would be interested to hear from those in the know how it works. If you are recorded in a private situation by a third party and that video is posted on social media without your knowledge, are you in breach of the policy for being posted or does the post need to be something that you have posted or authorised yourself.

Not having a dig with this point, I just really do not know where the culpability lies if a private conversation is published on social media without consent.

It is the actions in the vid that are the major issue. The copyright for the vid lies with the person who recorded the vid. If they choose to broadcast it, tough. Once upon a time anyone recorded had to sign a waiver before it could be published - can’t remember the name of it, it’s been a while since I did public photography.

It varies from country to country - maybe that’s his get out bearing in mind where it was recorded.

In the USA anything the eye can see in public can be recorded and published - 1st Amendment protected right. Here in Spain you can take photos and vids in public but you can’t publish without consent.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

The PGMOL will have an HR dept, either in house or outsourced. The company handbook will mirror the handbook of 99.9% of handbooks you’ll see in the U.K.

There will be a policy about social media and there will be a policy about the use of banned substances. There will also be a policy about gross misconduct and bringing the company into disrepute. Demotion for the first vid? Well thanks very much for palming him off on the teams in the lower leagues.. that’s just arrogant. Maybe we don’t want him either. You keep him. But that’s just emotion talking.

The second vid brings competency into the equation. How many matches has he reffed, or may ref going forward, in which drugs use coloured his decisions? The issue is trust.

And then there is the overarching issue of bring the PGMOL into disrepute.

Course of action; exercise the duty of care. Counselling and make sure he’s clean. That satisfies the company’s responsibilities. Then sack him. No if’s no but’s, sack him.

I think its looking like its going to be out of the PGMOL's hands, as it seems UEFA are not looking into it.

 

[Hobbit]

I think it's a huge leap to suggest he would have reffed games on gear. That's like seeing him drink a pint in an evening and asking how many Premier League games he must have drunk for.

You’re not wrong but prove you’re right… The issue is trust. A decent barrister could ask him to prove he was clean when he reffed games. No accusation has been made but, equally, he can’t prove he was clean. Trust in someone who appears untrustworthy. His character is shot to pieces.

It’s the same as a witness who has been caught lying. Everything they said before, even if it’s the truth, is open to question.

 

[Beezerk]

I take it there's no random drug testing regime for refs? Or did he know the season was over and went on a huge bender fully aware it would be out of his system come August.

 

[Orikoru]

You’re not wrong but prove you’re right… The issue is trust. A decent barrister could ask him to prove he was clean when he reffed games. No accusation has been made but, equally, he can’t prove he was clean. Trust in someone who appears untrustworthy. His character is shot to pieces.

It’s the same as a witness who has been caught lying. Everything they said before, even if it’s the truth, is open to question.

That would be tantamount to guilty until proven innocent though? I mean, I get what you're saying, but to lose his whole career over a line of coke while 'off duty' seems extreme to me.

 

[Hobbit]

That would be tantamount to guilty until proven innocent though? I mean, I get what you're saying, but to lose his whole career over a line of coke while 'off duty' seems extreme to me.

It isn’t the line of coke, it’s the bringing the company into disrepute. It’s the lack of proper judgement. And it’s trust.

Look at the disrepute issue. The PGMOL can’t manage it’s people ergo UEFA doesn’t pick Prem refs for European matches.

As for the potential draconian attitude towards coke etc whilst it’s covered by the Dangerous Drugs Act, 1920, what choice to the PGMOL have? Ignore the law? And what would ignoring a law do to their reputation? An argument on whether the law is outdated is for another time.

Should he lose his career for it? That’s up to his employers.