The Footie Thread

[Junior]

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Red Cafe are running a poll in regards ETH

View attachment 53500

Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position

www.redcafe.net

When you look at the managers Man Utd have had since Ferguson left then imo he is alongside the likes of OGS - as a rival fan i would prefer him to stay and I wonder what other rival fans would say




I think it’s a dangerous road if the reason to keep a manager is because of not liking or seeing a better upgrade - the likes of Tuchel have won the big trophies , Pochettino has proven to get the best out of players at a couple of prem clubs and then there are the likes of

Allegri , Xavi available , or even Zidane

And INEOS themselves also are very much going to be in the spotlight, they have proven themselves in other sports , football going to present a massive challenge

Is it a case of it’s going to get worse before getting better

Think the key at the moment is getting momentum going forward

Heard a lot on phone ins talking about Klopp only getting 8th in his first season - that was after taking over halfway through - he then after spent 3 seasons moving forward and improving each year. ETH and his team seem to have gone backwards this season , and next season is going to be even tougher with others improving

Read a piece in the paper today that said if a premier league manager of say Newcastle, Villa, Spurs, Brighton etc had in 2 seasons :-

- Been in 3 major trophy finals, winning 2,
- Come 3rd in the prem last season behind the 2 best teams by miles,
- Finished 8th with 60+ injuries this season….

..then that manager would be being linked with the Man U job.

I’ll admit to u-turning and am now falling on the side of give a season with hopefully less injuries and see what happens.

 

[Hobbit]

Fantastic coach. Poor manager.

He kept the Boro in the Prem. Had some great cup runs and got them into Europe in consecutive seasons, including to the UEFA Cup Final. All that with nowhere near the best squad in the Prem. Some stars, yes, but he coached some good football into that team.

I feel he underachieved as England manager, which left him with a bit of a tainted reputation. Although I must admit my suggestion was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[road2ruin]

Is it a case of it’s going to get worse before getting better

Think the key at the moment is getting momentum going forward

Most of the United fans I speak to aren’t expecting miracles and they do expect worse before it gets better but want to see a brighter future rather than the same old rubbish under the Glazers.

If INEOS bring in their man then my bet is that they’ll also struggle which puts the spotlight on them and that they’ve made their first major error. If you keep ETH in you have the fans onside and you’ve got a ready made fall guy if things go south. Then you put your own replacement in.

 

[PaulMdj]

Read a piece in the paper today that said if a premier league manager of say Newcastle, Villa, Spurs, Brighton etc had in 2 seasons :-

- Been in 3 major trophy finals, winning 2,
- Come 3rd in the prem last season behind the 2 best teams by miles,
- Finished 8th with 60+ injuries this season….

..then that manager would be being linked with the Man U job.

I’ll admit to u-turning and am now falling on the side of give a season with hopefully less injuries and see what happens.

This is absolutely spot on!

Not getting in to the “we had more injuries than you” discussion, but as an Everton fan looking in, it’s led by fickle fans.

I said the other day Utd are living in the past and everything is compared to SAF and his players.

Yes, you’ve struggled at times. Yes, it looks like some bad signings (trust me, we are experts at that).

But his record is very, very good, maybe not Utd good, but I don’t think anything will be good enough until you next win the PL, for yourselves, Lpool, Arsenal, even City, it seems only the PL Title matters.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This is absolutely spot on!

Not getting in to the “we had more injuries than you” discussion, but as an Everton fan looking in, it’s led by fickle fans.

I said the other day Utd are living in the past and everything is compared to SAF and his players.

Yes, you’ve struggled at times. Yes, it looks like some bad signings (trust me, we are experts at that).

But his record is very, very good, maybe not Utd good, but I don’t think anything will be good enough until you next win the PL, for yourselves, Lpool, Arsenal, even City, it seems only the PL Title matters.

For clubs like Man Utd , Liverpool and Arsenal then the title is really all that matters - for 30 years we had managers come and go who won cups and competitions but ultimately fell short because they didn’t win the title - that’s the bread and butter for the club, it’s the number one target each season. If the team isn’t challenging for the title then the manager will be under pressure

Winning Cups is great and it’s a great day out and always good to add success but it’s always will be the title

 

[PaulMdj]

For clubs like Man Utd , Liverpool and Arsenal then the title is really all that matters - for 30 years we had managers come and go who won cups and competitions but ultimately fell short because they didn’t win the title - that’s the bread and butter for the club, it’s the number one target each season. If the team isn’t challenging for the title then the manager will be under pressure

Winning Cups is great and it’s a great day out and always good to add success but it’s always will be the title

I’ll more than agree it’s the pinnacle, but I disagree it’s really all that matters.

Yous were dominating Europe, but still had the monkey on your back about not winning the title, that’s daft imo, and only leads to more pressure being put on the Club/Manager & Players at the time and presently.

It comes back to the Clubs that won/dominated the League for extended periods of time and their fans expecting that to continue, it can’t and won’t and it’s used as a stick when it doesn’t happen.

Prior to the 80’s no Club dominated the League and a FA Cup win was seen as a good season, now it’s nearly on par with The Johnson’s Paint Trophy.

Absolutely compete for the title, absolutely be in contention, but to be seen as almost a failure for not winning the League and only winning a Cup is losing perspective.

There’s 3 routes into Europe, 2 into the CL, but only 1 team can win the title, staying in contention, battling on all fronts is successful, but failure seems to only have 1 measure.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I’ll more than agree it’s the pinnacle, but I disagree it’s really all that matters.

Yous were dominating Europe, but still had the monkey on your back about not winning the title, that’s daft imo, and only leads to more pressure being put on the Club/Manager & Players at the time and presently.

It comes back to the Clubs that won/dominated the League for extended periods of time and their fans expecting that to continue, it can’t and won’t and it’s used as a stick when it doesn’t happen.

Prior to the 80’s no Club dominated the League and a FA Cup win was seen as a good season, now it’s nearly on par with The Johnson’s Paint Trophy.

Absolutely compete for the title, absolutely be in contention, but to be seen as almost a failure for not winning the League and only winning a Cup is losing perspective.

There’s 3 routes into Europe, 2 into the CL, but only 1 team can win the title, staying in contention, battling on all fronts is successful, but failure seems to only have 1 measure.

It is what matters to many fans for those top clubs and you prob include Chelsea now

It’s diffrent for the likes of Madrid etc where the CL is the pinnacle

But if a manager of Liverpool , Utd etc are not challenging for the title then they will be under pressure and will be let go

We went 30 years without winning one and it was a huge issue

Arsenal have now been 20 years and if Arteta doesn’t get over the line in the next two seasons then questions will be asked

 

[PaulMdj]

It is what matters to many fans for those top clubs and you prob include Chelsea now

It’s diffrent for the likes of Madrid etc where the CL is the pinnacle

But if a manager of Liverpool , Utd etc are not challenging for the title then they will be under pressure and will be let go

We went 30 years without winning one and it was a huge issue

Arsenal have now been 20 years and if Arteta doesn’t get over the line in the next two seasons then questions will be asked

It’s a modern thing though, the pressure is unrealistic, absolutely all Clubs should hope to challenge, and I mean all Clubs.

Villa have had a great season, fans buzzing for next season, but the fans of the so called bigger clubs are not looking at them as serious title contenders, that’s everything that’s wrong with football, Villa are a massive Club who have the history and fans to be able to compete at the top level.

The expectancy of some fans is what is causing problems, if Arteta doesn’t get over the line it shouldn’t be looked at as failure of him.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It’s a modern thing though, the pressure is unrealistic, absolutely all Clubs should hope to challenge, and I mean all Clubs.

Villa have had a great season, fans buzzing for next season, but the fans of the so called bigger clubs are not looking at them as serious title contenders, that’s everything that’s wrong with football, Villa are a massive Club who have the history and fans to be able to compete at the top level.

The expectancy of some fans is what is causing problems, if Arteta doesn’t get over the line it shouldn’t be looked at as failure of him.

Don’t think it is modern thing though - how many managers did Utd go through looking for the holy grail of the title , same when we had Souness and Evans , they both fell short when it came to the title

Villa won 1 title in 100 years , they have a big history due to that EC win they got but then have spent decades yo yoing between leagues so fans don’t expect them to be challenging for titles as they have done it prob once in the last 40 years

All sport has hierarchy - there will always be some clubs bigger than others

 

[Swango1980]

It is what matters to many fans for those top clubs and you prob include Chelsea now

It’s diffrent for the likes of Madrid etc where the CL is the pinnacle

But if a manager of Liverpool , Utd etc are not challenging for the title then they will be under pressure and will be let go

We went 30 years without winning one and it was a huge issue

Arsenal have now been 20 years and if Arteta doesn’t get over the line in the next two seasons then questions will be asked

That will give Arteta something like 7 seasons before questions are asked of him?

That's awfully generous, lucky for him I guess as his first 2 seasons at the club Arsenal finished 8th.

Utd should only give their managers 2 seasons. And, if they only win 2 cups, it doesn't matter. If they finish outside top 4, sack them. Because Man Utd are just that much better than everyone else, and should be the best. The players Man Utd have at their disposal are so much better than the poorer quality Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs and Villa players, so should beat them easily. At minimum, the players at Utd are at a level similar to City, Arsenal and Liverpool, and thus should easily be up there with them...

I was joking in that last paragraph of course. The players Man Utd have, especially after injuries, are not at the same level of those other clubs. Certainly have no right to expect to be better than them. Some players may be there, others will hopefully develop to that standard. But many will also have to leave, new players come in, and then maybe Utd should expect much better.

 

[PaulMdj]

Don’t think it is modern thing though - how many managers did Utd go through looking for the holy grail of the title , same when we had Souness and Evans , they both fell short when it came to the title

Villa won 1 title in 100 years , they have a big history due to that EC win they got but then have spent decades yo yoing between leagues so fans don’t expect them to be challenging for titles as they have done it prob once in the last 40 years

All sport has hierarchy - there will always be some clubs bigger than others

And those Clubs are cyclical, Souness and Evans came along after you dominated in the 80’s and were trying to get back there.

City have never dominated before, Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea dominated 90’s onwards.

That doesn’t mean only 5 Clubs have a right to win the title. The hierarchy evolves.

Villa’s history is far more than 1 EC, still a massive Club.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

That will give Arteta something like 7 seasons before questions are asked of him?

That's awfully generous, lucky for him I guess as his first 2 seasons at the club Arsenal finished 8th.

Utd should only give their managers 2 seasons. And, if they only win 2 cups, it doesn't matter. If they finish outside top 4, sack them. Because Man Utd are just that much better than everyone else, and should be the best. The players Man Utd have at their disposal are so much better than the poorer quality Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs and Villa players, so should beat them easily. At minimum, the players at Utd are at a level similar to City, Arsenal and Liverpool, and thus should easily be up there with them...

I was joking in that last paragraph of course. The players Man Utd have, especially after injuries, are not at the same level of those other clubs. Certainly have no right to expect to be better than them. Some players may be there, others will hopefully develop to that standard. But many will also have to leave, new players come in, and then maybe Utd should expect much better.

Questions were asked of Arteta but then they improved each season under him to seriously challenging- also worth nothing in the his “first season” that he finished 8th he arrived halfway through

ETH has gone from 2nd to 8th and was there any signs of the manager moving the club forward as opposed to backwards ?

And those Clubs are cyclical, Souness and Evans came along after you dominated in the 80’s and were trying to get back there.

City have never dominated before, Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea dominated 90’s onwards.

That doesn’t mean only 5 Clubs have a right to win the title. The hierarchy evolves.

Villa’s history is far more than 1 EC, still a massive Club.

Every team has the right to win a title but expectations at a club will differ - some clubs expect to be challenging for the title due to multiple reasons

And “size” a club will be down to multiple very loose factors - history , trophies , fanbase , finances

Some see “x” club as massive or big - others will see it differently

 

[road2ruin]

ETH has gone from 2nd to 8th and was there any signs of the manager moving the club forward as opposed to backwards ?

I thought that last season we massively over performed plus other teams under performed which flattered us and papered over the cracks. This seasons 8th was woeful but also had extenuating circumstances. In reality we probably should have been a 4th/5th position club in both seasons and there wouldn’t have been the discussion about regression.

 

[Swango1980]

Questions were asked of Arteta but then they improved each season under him to seriously challenging- also worth nothing in the his “first season” that he finished 8th he arrived halfway through

ETH has gone from 2nd to 8th and was there any signs of the manager moving the club forward as opposed to backwards ?



Every team has the right to win a title but expectations at a club will differ - some clubs expect to be challenging for the title due to multiple reasons

And “size” a club will be down to multiple very loose factors - history , trophies , fanbase , finances

Some see “x” club as massive or big - others will see it differently

3rd to 8th.

Talk to Utd fans last year about moving club forward, I'd say close to 100% would say yes. Not just where we finished in league. But, the fact he took over an absolute car crash. The fact he had to deal with dramas all season. The fact he started clearing out some of the deadwood. It was all positive.

But, does that mean Man Utd MUST demand 3rd or better this season? We wanted it, sure. But, should we insist on it?

Man City would look to win again. Arsenal will look to improve on their 2nd. Newcastle wanted to improve. What about Liverpool, where would you like to see them. I'm sure Chelsea had lofty ambitions. Then there will usually be other clubs like Villa who look to join the party.

Not every club will improve, even if every club happened to have a good manager. I just hate the thought of sacking managers after 2, maybe even 3 seasons, rather than stick with them. When ETH took over, many predicted it could take 4 or 5 seasons to clean up the squad. So, why sack a manager after a rough patch, with a fragile squad, after 2 years. Especially after winning 2 cups, getting to another final and qualifying for Europe? I just hate the thought of that, I don't want to be another Chelsea.

But, I'm 100% convinced ETH didn't just turn into a bad manager this season. He didn't have many of the players that served him so well, playing much this season. The weakness of the replacements was plain to see, often the 3rd and 4th choice replacements.

Many Utd fans predicted the players, attitude and quality, would end up getting ETH sacked. Just like previous managers. Although, apart from one or two like Sancho, I think a lot of the players like ETH. I'm not sure I'd say the same with the likes of Mourinho.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I thought that last season we massively over performed plus other teams under performed which flattered us and papered over the cracks. This seasons 8th was woeful but also had extenuating circumstances. In reality we probably should have been a 4th/5th position club in both seasons and there wouldn’t have been the discussion about regression.

So did the false positions elevate ETH a little then ? Is there a chance that he is a manager that will be “5/6/7th” in the league and he doesn’t have the ability to move the club forward.

Right now there isn’t a depth of top managers waiting in the wings - clubs now need to take risks on young managers building their career - it’s something we have to do

I guess the years under Ferguson has raised the level of expectations within the club and fanbase. Certainly reading red cafe shows a fanbase with expectations they don’t see ETH matching , not sure if that’s realistic or not

But i think the writing is on the wall for him and unless people turn them down I suspect he will be gone sooner than later

 

[Swango1980]

So did the false positions elevate ETH a little then ? Is there a chance that he is a manager that will be “5/6/7th” in the league and he doesn’t have the ability to move the club forward.

Right now there isn’t a depth of top managers waiting in the wings - clubs now need to take risks on young managers building their career - it’s something we have to do

I guess the years under Ferguson has raised the level of expectations within the club and fanbase. Certainly reading red cafe shows a fanbase with expectations they don’t see ETH matching , not sure if that’s realistic or not

But i think the writing is on the wall for him and unless people turn them down I suspect he will be gone sooner than later

Are you seriously a Liverpool fan!??

Do you have a gold standard membership of Red Cafe, or do you just pop in and out of several Man Utd forums?

 

[road2ruin]

So did the false positions elevate ETH a little then ? Is there a chance that he is a manager that will be “5/6/7th” in the league and he doesn’t have the ability to move the club forward.

Right now there isn’t a depth of top managers waiting in the wings - clubs now need to take risks on young managers building their career - it’s something we have to do

I guess the years under Ferguson has raised the level of expectations within the club and fanbase. Certainly reading red cafe shows a fanbase with expectations they don’t see ETH matching , not sure if that’s realistic or not

But i think the writing is on the wall for him and unless people turn them down I suspect he will be gone sooner than later

You might well be right however I want to give him a season to prove that either right or wrong rather than following the Chelsea etc route of changing managers every 18 months. We’ve already fallen into that trap and it’s done us absolutely no favours.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You might well be right however I want to give him a season to prove that either right or wrong rather than following the Chelsea etc route of changing managers every 18 months. We’ve already fallen into that trap and it’s done us absolutely no favours.

I think a lot of it comes down to who is above the manager and what their football level is and also if they have full autonomy of football matters - Utd’s biggest issue maybe the lack of DoF , if ETH does leave - who has made that choice that has the level of knowledge of the game to be able to make the choice

Maybe the club are going to wait until Ashworth finally starts

Edit - just seen reports that they are talking to Frank and Pochettino

 

[ColchesterFC]

For clubs like Man Utd , Liverpool and Arsenal then the title is really all that matters - for 30 years we had managers come and go who won cups and competitions but ultimately fell short because they didn’t win the title - that’s the bread and butter for the club, it’s the number one target each season. If the team isn’t challenging for the title then the manager will be under pressure

Winning Cups is great and it’s a great day out and always good to add success but it’s always will be the title

So Klopp was a failure then as he only won one title?

 

[PaulMdj]

So did the false positions elevate ETH a little then ? Is there a chance that he is a manager that will be “5/6/7th” in the league and he doesn’t have the ability to move the club forward.

Right now there isn’t a depth of top managers waiting in the wings - clubs now need to take risks on young managers building their career - it’s something we have to do

I guess the years under Ferguson has raised the level of expectations within the club and fanbase. Certainly reading red cafe shows a fanbase with expectations they don’t see ETH matching , not sure if that’s realistic or not

But i think the writing is on the wall for him and unless people turn them down I suspect he will be gone sooner than later

I don’t think there needs to be top managers waiting in the wings for the top Clubs, surely Clubs with the stature of Utd & Lpool should be able to entice any manager bar 1 or 2.

Apart from Real Madrid and Barca, surely any manager in the world would love LPool and Utd on their CV.