Swango1980
Well-known member
We probably won't need to predict the line up Southgate will choose for long. It seems like his starting line up is revealed a day or 2 before the game actually kicks off.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Not surprised Kane had a back problem after carrying the whole Bayern team all season. Gone over this before but I do find it weird when a striker gets flack in a team that is not creating anything. Is he supposed to score goals out of absolutely nothing all on his own? He's capable of it, but when he goes looking for the ball, people criticise that as well.
Saka was the highest-rated player in the Prem on WhoScored so he can't have been that bad: link Palmer's a good young talent, but I don't necessarily think that means rushing him into the line-up straight away, at the expense of another very good young player who's been one of England's best in the last two years.
Foden has played on the left for City plenty of times, but it is a different system and I'd definitely like to see him play in the middle for England.
For me Rice's best position is DM. The whole trope of him playing number 8 is just his ego wanting to play that way. I don't know why Southgate is terrified of playing Bellingham next to him.
Correct on Trippier but we have zero other option because the only left back he called up is injured.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I think Mainoo has proved he should be there imo
The Foden/Bellingham is getting close to the Lampard/Gerrard issue
Beezerk
Money List Winner
I don't buy all that protecting young talent stuff, if they're good enough then get them in regardless of age, unless they're like 10 or something
Saka has been good over the years but for me current form trumps historical form so I'd drop him.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
That's fine but they're both good. Saka has been good for 2-3 years, Palmer has been good for about 8 months. Saka has arguably been one of our slightly better players too - certainly not someone I'd earmark as a problem that needs changing anyway. I don't think swapping him for Palmer would really change much. The problems are in the formation and system, changing one left-footed right-winger for another left-footed right-winger isn't going to have a huge effect.I don't buy all that protecting young talent stuff, if they're good enough then get them in regardless of age, unless they're like 10 or something
Saka has been good over the years but for me current form trumps historical form so I'd drop him.
Who is good right now, at this tournament? That is what really matters.
Saka is excellent but he looks off right now. Use the squad, it is what it's there for.
On domestic matters, having June 30th as the FFP accounts deadline is giving us a whole new transfer deadline day. I don't know what is happening at other clubs but there is all sorts of fun and intrigue going on at Everton. I'm expecting some more funky deals this week, then a quiet spell until the next deadline date. Exciting stuff (apart from Ashley Young signing a 1yr extension 
. That has saddened me deeply 
)
. That has saddened me deeply )
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Does he?? I thought he was one of the less bad ones to be honest. I'd be focussing on solving the Foden/Bellingham midfield conundrum rather than replacing a winger with a like-for-like winger, that's all.
Arguably if you were dropping Saka you could just play Foden on the right and bring in Gordon on the left. Probably a better idea.
Swango1980
Well-known member
There seems to be an argument for not selecting pretty much every England "1st team" player, outside defence and goalkeeper. For example, some may see Kane as the biggest problem because he drops deep, but then do we really think England would play any better starting with Watkins or Toney?
Foden has been nowhere near as good as he has been for City, playing out on the left. Saka cuts in on his left foot a lot. Bellingham has been non existent except for his goal. Rice is passing side ways. Gallagher or TAA are not the answer in midfield. None of the attacking players have really been that impressive at all. Therefore, it is difficult to pinpoint the blame on one or 2 particular players, not playing the position properly, or being tired or injured. It seems like it is more fundamentally a Southgate problem. If he managed the Spanish or Portuguese team, I suspect they'd play awful boring football, whereas if England had their managers, they'd probably play much more positively.
I suspect for the next game, he'll play pretty much the same team, except play Mainoo instead of TAA or Gallagher, desperately looking for his new Kalvin Phillips. It is hard to not pick Palmer, so perhaps he plays him ahead of Saka, although I'm not sure Southgate is ready to drop Saka. And I'm pretty sure he'll keep Foden on the left. No way he is dropping his captain Kane, so tactically it is difficult to see how he can change a lot. He's probably quite rigid with his tactics, because maybe England looked good once before playing that way when thumping a team like San Marino, so he is convinced this is the best way to play football.
Foden has been nowhere near as good as he has been for City, playing out on the left. Saka cuts in on his left foot a lot. Bellingham has been non existent except for his goal. Rice is passing side ways. Gallagher or TAA are not the answer in midfield. None of the attacking players have really been that impressive at all. Therefore, it is difficult to pinpoint the blame on one or 2 particular players, not playing the position properly, or being tired or injured. It seems like it is more fundamentally a Southgate problem. If he managed the Spanish or Portuguese team, I suspect they'd play awful boring football, whereas if England had their managers, they'd probably play much more positively.
I suspect for the next game, he'll play pretty much the same team, except play Mainoo instead of TAA or Gallagher, desperately looking for his new Kalvin Phillips. It is hard to not pick Palmer, so perhaps he plays him ahead of Saka, although I'm not sure Southgate is ready to drop Saka. And I'm pretty sure he'll keep Foden on the left. No way he is dropping his captain Kane, so tactically it is difficult to see how he can change a lot. He's probably quite rigid with his tactics, because maybe England looked good once before playing that way when thumping a team like San Marino, so he is convinced this is the best way to play football.
If you play Foden on the right then you are just moving the Foden problem from the left side to the right. Play him in the middle or leave him on the bench.
Saka was excellent in the 1st half of the 1st game but has done nothing since. Start someone else next game, bring Saka on if necessary. We should not be sticking with players in the hope they will regain form. Tournaments are not long enough for that. Palmer did more in 20 minutes than Saka did in 2 games.
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
I think you need to consider that these are high energy positions and it’s 60mins then subbed off.
For me Saka looks tired, Palmer looked fresh eager .. but you could argue well he was put on after Saka had run his man.. hence my first statement rotate in game.
Kane is not on form, get him off .. simple no emotion about it just accept it.
He isn’t scaring anyone with his pace .. a defender who will be in a foot race will be more likely to commit a foul or lose possession.
No one was running with the ball into space .. every good team drives into space because it draws opposing players in and then creates gaps ( which should be exploited by mobile players - which Kane is not) ..
Football tactics employed here is just counter attack it’s mono dimensional.. you have to force the issue stretch your opponents positioning as well.
We have those players ..
also all this wing back stuff is getting up my nose, we don’t have them available so you have to ply with what you have and that sets the defensive system.. which can be a back 4 or 3 depending on the defensive qualities of your wingers ( if you are subbing them out then it’s a fair request to run them into the ground)
AmandaJR
Money List Winner
A few posts back someone said Southgate must be arrogant. I think he is. I think he's thinking he'll do it his way and is reluctant to make the changes the whole nation is asking for - simply because the whole nation is asking for it. He's useless. Seriously beyond useless.
Not an issue for SpainI don't buy all that protecting young talent stuff, if they're good enough then get them in regardless of age, unless they're like 10 or something
Saka has been good over the years but for me current form trumps historical form so I'd drop him.
harpo_72
Journeyman Pro
Honestly speaking I have not identified a system or tactic from England ..
In fact I don’t see any aggression or replication of Premiership football.. “oh but that doesn’t win football tournaments “ is the cry .. the answer is who knows, we try and do stuff we are not used to every time ..
Just play football, be aggressive, push hard, play fast - lots of successful English players have done this when they have played abroad with success so why should an English team not do it on the international stage? ( 5 subs has opened the door on this)
In fact I don’t see any aggression or replication of Premiership football.. “oh but that doesn’t win football tournaments “ is the cry .. the answer is who knows, we try and do stuff we are not used to every time ..
Just play football, be aggressive, push hard, play fast - lots of successful English players have done this when they have played abroad with success so why should an English team not do it on the international stage? ( 5 subs has opened the door on this)
Beezerk
Money List Winner
I just think he’s not a very good coach and doesn’t have the ability to think outside the box. No pun intended
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
Im not asking for them to start, im asking for them to feature if after 45 mins were offering nothing. Theyre all totally different players and all capable, I dont care how many Kane has scored for England in the past, I care about winning games now and we dont look like doing it atm so we have to try the other players.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
Yeah that was me - there's no way he could have missed all the countless suggestions to play Bellingham next to Rice and Foden at no.10. At this point his refusal to do it is arrogance. "I'm not having people tell me how to run the team." Cutting his nose off to spite his face.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Assuming it is simply that the players are at fault, and not the system. If the system is the problem, it is going to be pretty annoying changing a lot of England's best players to lesser players, and then finding out England are just as rubbish, if not worse. Experimenting in the group stages was bad enough, experimenting even more in the knockouts seems suicidal.
So many people were glowing about England being favourites before the tournament began. Best player in Premier League, Bundasliga, La Liga, etc. The only concern was defence. Now, three games in, there are fewer complaints about the defence, but suddenly fans are crying out for many of their biggest attacking players to get dropped.
Kane, Bellingham, Foden haven't suddenly become bad players. A selection of 3 games isn't really enough to prove that certain players are bang out of form, as the 3 games could have just been awful team performances.
At any rate, England's next game will start to show the true test for Southgate. He has shown nothing that he has learnt from past failures so far, but it is only the group stages and he ultimately won the group. But, when everything is on the line, how will he cope then? Especially when up against another top nation? Will he just play like he has been doing in the groups? Will he wait to make changes in the 68th minute (in fairness, he brought Mainoo on at half time last night). Will he make tactical changes, or stick to the exact same system, and hope fresh players are all that is needed at the end of the game?
RichA
Well-known member
Yep. I always think of Rice as a defender who roams forward a bit. Don't understand why he and GS think he's one of our playmakers who should be given the ball every time he calls his name, just so he can carry it forward until he's out of position then pass it backwards.
A gift wrapped draw. Southgate does seem to get them. And generally fails to take advantage.
