The Footie Thread

[Orikoru]

Quite possibly the worst miss I've ever seen

So bad it hardly qualifies as a miss, he didn't even get a shot away. Just the heaviest touch of all time. It almost looked like if he'd have jumped and slid he might have got to it before it went out of play as well.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I'm sure that was posted on here last night, but I just can't find it!
Maybe I should go back to bed.

It was but it contained a swearword, hence it & the poster have been removed...

 

[rudebhoy]

It was but it contained a swearword, hence it & the poster have been removed...

Who was the poster?

 

[PJ87]

Former referee Dermot Gallagher says the VAR team were correct to allow Kurt Zouma's opening goal against Bournemouth to stand.
And he also believes VAR assistant Mike Dean and his panel were correct to award West Ham a penalty in the final minute of normal time following a hand ball by Bournemouth sub Jordan Zemura.
Explaining why West Ham's opening goal was allowed to stand despite the ball appearing to bounce off defender Thilo Kehrer's forearm, Gallagher said: " With the law set up as it is now, there are three questions.

"Did Kehrer score? No. Did it result in an immediate goal from a colleague? No. And the third thing is, the only way you could disallow it is if it was deliberate hand ball.

"It went to Mike Dean's VAR. He had a look, he said it hit him [Kehrer] but he thought it was accidental - and therefore the referee can't disallow the goal.

"If Kehrer had scored himself obviously it would've been disallowed. If it had gone immediately to Soucek and he'd put the ball in the net, also disallowed. That's why it defaulted to the third option."

And as for West Ham's second goal, which came from the penalty spot after Zemura was adjudged to have handled the ball from Vladimir Coufal's cross, Gallagher added: "Zemura dives in and his arms are outstretched.

"It hits his arms and we've seen 95 per cent of these given in the Premier League, they've been very consistent in applying this.

The other giveaway is that that ball is being crossed in the box to Antonio and he [Zemura] has stopped the cross because his arms are out. Once you see it on the replay the referee is duty bound to give a penalty.

"He's stopping the cross, there's no doubt about that. Unfortunately for Zemura he's tried to make his body bigger to block the cross - he hasn't gone to handle the ball because it's struck it.

"And that's the thing - 90 per cent of the penalties given now for hand ball are not deliberate but because they've blocked the cross or the shot towards goal, they automatically give penalties.

"They were both correct decisions because they fall in line with what we've seen. You're never going to get 100 per cent correct decisions, we recognise that, but 90 per cent of these have been given as penalties and the expectation now from spectators now is 'penalty'.

"And I think the expectation was Zemura was 'penalty'. Even, when you saw him, he had this resigned look on his face - almost as if to say 'I know what's coming'.



one thing I will say about this summary of both incidents is 90% of the time, the 10% is what people moan about.. much like everything in life, be it deliveroo drivers not turning up.. jumping red lights..its 10% of a lot of situations just make it stand out more i guess

still dont think the first was a goal think it was handball but that seems what we keep saying here.. VAR isnt the issue, its the Laws that are

 

[Tashyboy]

Former referee Dermot Gallagher says the VAR team were correct to allow Kurt Zouma's opening goal against Bournemouth to stand.
And he also believes VAR assistant Mike Dean and his panel were correct to award West Ham a penalty in the final minute of normal time following a hand ball by Bournemouth sub Jordan Zemura.
Explaining why West Ham's opening goal was allowed to stand despite the ball appearing to bounce off defender Thilo Kehrer's forearm, Gallagher said: " With the law set up as it is now, there are three questions.

"Did Kehrer score? No. Did it result in an immediate goal from a colleague? No. And the third thing is, the only way you could disallow it is if it was deliberate hand ball.

"It went to Mike Dean's VAR. He had a look, he said it hit him [Kehrer] but he thought it was accidental - and therefore the referee can't disallow the goal.

"If Kehrer had scored himself obviously it would've been disallowed. If it had gone immediately to Soucek and he'd put the ball in the net, also disallowed. That's why it defaulted to the third option."

And as for West Ham's second goal, which came from the penalty spot after Zemura was adjudged to have handled the ball from Vladimir Coufal's cross, Gallagher added: "Zemura dives in and his arms are outstretched.

"It hits his arms and we've seen 95 per cent of these given in the Premier League, they've been very consistent in applying this.

The other giveaway is that that ball is being crossed in the box to Antonio and he [Zemura] has stopped the cross because his arms are out. Once you see it on the replay the referee is duty bound to give a penalty.

"He's stopping the cross, there's no doubt about that. Unfortunately for Zemura he's tried to make his body bigger to block the cross - he hasn't gone to handle the ball because it's struck it.

"And that's the thing - 90 per cent of the penalties given now for hand ball are not deliberate but because they've blocked the cross or the shot towards goal, they automatically give penalties.

"They were both correct decisions because they fall in line with what we've seen. You're never going to get 100 per cent correct decisions, we recognise that, but 90 per cent of these have been given as penalties and the expectation now from spectators now is 'penalty'.

"And I think the expectation was Zemura was 'penalty'. Even, when you saw him, he had this resigned look on his face - almost as if to say 'I know what's coming'.



one thing I will say about this summary of both incidents is 90% of the time, the 10% is what people moan about.. much like everything in life, be it deliveroo drivers not turning up.. jumping red lights..its 10% of a lot of situations just make it stand out more i guess

still dont think the first was a goal think it was handball but that seems what we keep saying here.. VAR isnt the issue, its the Laws that are

An excellent read up. But the highlighted points sum up what is wrong with this particular instance. Kehre, made a deliberate movement with his right arm to direct the ball towards the goals. It was intentional. At that point it should of been disallowed. For me the interpretation of what is and what is not handball in that instance was wrong. Again did it result in an immediate goal. It was in the back of the net within three seconds so what is classed as “ immediate”.
Re Dermot Gallagher giving his thoughts, I seriously have issues re referees giving an opinion on referees. They nearly always defend them. We need. Roy Keane of referees to give his thoughts ?

 

[PJ87]

An excellent read up. But the highlighted points sum up what is wrong with this particular instance. Kehre, made a deliberate movement with his right arm to direct the ball towards the goals. It was intentional. At that point it should of been disallowed. For me the interpretation of what is and what is not handball in that instance was wrong. Again did it result in an immediate goal. It was in the back of the net within three seconds so what is classed as “ immediate”.
Re Dermot Gallagher giving his thoughts, I seriously have issues re referees giving an opinion on referees. They nearly always defend them. We need. Roy Keane of referees to give his thoughts ?

I understand the immediate bit because its been summed up a few times this season (we benefited from it during fulham game) it came off another player so to speak. Soucek header had gone in, that would be disallowed but he headed and the defender cleared

much like fulham goal with antonio he got a touch but then defender touched it back to him so second phase

terrible law but its what we got

 

[Swango1980]

An excellent read up. But the highlighted points sum up what is wrong with this particular instance. Kehre, made a deliberate movement with his right arm to direct the ball towards the goals. It was intentional. At that point it should of been disallowed. For me the interpretation of what is and what is not handball in that instance was wrong. Again did it result in an immediate goal. It was in the back of the net within three seconds so what is classed as “ immediate”.
Re Dermot Gallagher giving his thoughts, I seriously have issues re referees giving an opinion on referees. They nearly always defend them. We need. Roy Keane of referees to give his thoughts ?

See, this is were I have to disagree, or at least at best say this is completely subjective.

I have just gone on youtube and watched the replay about 8 times, from the various angles given. I struggle to see any intent to handle the ball at all. He just seems to jump up, as the ball is approaching him, with a load of other players in front. His hands are down by his torso, and it seems he wasn't really expecting it to get all the way though. The fact that he jumped indicates he completely misjudged the flight of the ball. It then just goes into his torso, and hits his arm(s). So, from my own subjective viewpoint, I'm firmly in the corner he had no intent to ever handle the ball. I can't say it with 100% certainty as I can't read his mind, but I'm definitely closer to 100% than 50%.

But, we'll never eliminate subjectivity from football. That can even mean that one person is 100% for one decision, whilst another is 100% the other way. Neither thinks it is subjective, but it is (even if we ignore biased opinions of fans the decision related to).

However, as said, the handball rule is certainly a farce. Where it is given as a handball purely based on either what happens next, or whether it is a defending or attacking player it relates to.

 

[PJ87]

See, this is were I have to disagree, or at least at best say this is completely subjective.

I have just gone on youtube and watched the replay about 8 times, from the various angles given. I struggle to see any intent to handle the ball at all. He just seems to jump up, as the ball is approaching him, with a load of other players in front. His hands are down by his torso, and it seems he wasn't really expecting it to get all the way though. The fact that he jumped indicates he completely misjudged the flight of the ball. It then just goes into his torso, and hits his arm(s). So, from my own subjective viewpoint, I'm firmly in the corner he had no intent to ever handle the ball. I can't say it with 100% certainty as I can't read his mind, but I'm definitely closer to 100% than 50%.

But, we'll never eliminate subjectivity from football. That can even mean that one person is 100% for one decision, whilst another is 100% the other way. Neither thinks it is subjective, but it is (even if we ignore biased opinions of fans the decision related to).

However, as said, the handball rule is certainly a farce. Where it is given as a handball purely based on either what happens next, or whether it is a defending or attacking player it relates to.

Problem is nothing is black and white

We had the anything below the shoulder being handball for a while and players started kicking it against hands to get a pen .. they had to change it

 

[Tashyboy]

Just outta interest and I don’t know the answer to this. Who and when do rules change and are footballers actually part of the rule change process. ?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Just outta interest and I don’t know the answer to this. Who and when do rules change and are footballers actually part of the rule change process. ?

https://www.theifab.com/organisation/

This is the body that makes the rules, a range of people are on it including ex footballers and managers.

 

[Swango1980]

Just outta interest and I don’t know the answer to this. Who and when do rules change and are footballers actually part of the rule change process. ?

I don't know the answer. I suspect they change things dependent on the amount of criticism they get at any given time. However, it is like they rush to make changes, without talking to that many people, and fail to see where the rule change might kick them up the back side. I don't even know who is responsible for writing the rules, or where they are based? Google tells me it is the IFAB, but I don't know if the rules change (or at least their interpretations) from one country to another? For example, was the shirt sleave rule just in this country? Or the various handball rules we hear about, are they consistent, or will we have different interpretations at the World Cup. I seem to remember Spanish football automatically booked players for handball a while back, even if it was accidental.

It would be useful if the authorities in each country educated the main broadcasters (BBC, Sky and BT). At least the pundits and commentators would then have an idea of how the rule is MEANT to work, and then have a more informed opinion as to whether a decision was correct or not. Often they seem as clueless as the rest of us, and it required Lineker to show a screenshot of the wording of a particular rule to try and explain things. Robbie Savage seems to have no idea of the most basic rules, although that has probably more to do with him than anything else.

 

[Slime]

Problem is nothing is black and white

We had the anything below the shoulder being handball for a while and players started kicking it against hands to get a pen .. they had to change it

A chess board or a zebra?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I don't know the answer. I suspect they change things dependent on the amount of criticism they get at any given time. However, it is like they rush to make changes, without talking to that many people, and fail to see where the rule change might kick them up the back side. I don't even know who is responsible for writing the rules, or where they are based? Google tells me it is the IFAB, but I don't know if the rules change (or at least their interpretations) from one country to another? For example, was the shirt sleave rule just in this country? Or the various handball rules we hear about, are they consistent, or will we have different interpretations at the World Cup. I seem to remember Spanish football automatically booked players for handball a while back, even if it was accidental.

It would be useful if the authorities in each country educated the main broadcasters (BBC, Sky and BT). At least the pundits and commentators would then have an idea of how the rule is MEANT to work, and then have a more informed opinion as to whether a decision was correct or not. Often they seem as clueless as the rest of us, and it required Lineker to show a screenshot of the wording of a particular rule to try and explain things. Robbie Savage seems to have no idea of the most basic rules, although that has probably more to do with him than anything else.

I'd love to hear a conversation between Robbie Savage and Clinton Morrison where they discuss who understands the rules least of all between them both ?. Then again, no it would be purgatory ?.

Personally I'd have thought professional pride as a broadcaster would mean that you would go on a referee's course, hone up on rule changes every season. That way you would know what was going on. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Swango1980]

I'd love to hear a conversation between Robbie Savage and Clinton Morrison where they discuss who understands the rules least of all between them both ?. Then again, no it would be purgatory ?.

Personally I'd have thought professional pride as a broadcaster would mean that you would go on a referee's course, hone up on rule changes every season. That way you would know what was going on. Is that too much to ask?

Problem is, the rules seem to change every week or two. Or, at least how they are interpreted.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Problem is, the rules seem to change every week or two. Or, at least how they are interpreted.

They don't really. Interpretations may change slightly but clubs and media are notified by referees association, they go into clubs to explain, so the information is out there.

There really isn't an excuse for professionals, it's just laziness or a way to hype up callers on radio phone ins.

 

[4LEX]

Struggle to think of a worse first half performance from any English team in the CL than the one Spurs have put in....

 

[Swango1980]

Struggle to think of a worse first half performance from any English team in the CL than the one Spurs have put in....

I remember many saying United absolutely should have got Conte. Personally, I had no enthusiasm for that potential appointment, and as it stands, delighted we never rushed into appointing him.

 

[clubchamp98]

Should be 2-2 in Amsterdam.
How has Nunez missed that?

 

[Tashyboy]

That spurs disallowed goal looked a bit iffy with the 3 min VAR check.

 

[Tashyboy]

Atletico, Barca and Juve miss out on the last 16 ?