The all things EV chat thread

[PJ87]

But that's still many years to recoup the high initial outlay for an EV, plus installation of a home charger. That's what put me off EV when I changed my car last year.

Price is dropping for second hand

Kia niro EV 2 year old model I want 25k
Kia niro hybrid 20k for similar spec

Break even point less than 5 years

 

[cliveb]

Octopus go has returned to 9.50p night 31p all other times as stated above (in my area) flexible is 30.75p now .. so that fraction of a pence wont even make a dent

Have just seen octopus offer loyal deal at 28p so 3000 kw a year at 3p is £90 so average users would pay £90 more for their house but save on car

Since we're talking about Octopus, their Tracker tariff is around (usually slightly under) 20p a unit. So if you are using most of your electricity during the day, switching to Go makes no sense. Of course I agree that if you have an EV and do a high mileage, you want to be on Go.

But for those of use who do a low mileage (I do about 5000 miles a year), there is no economically valid reason to get an EV. If I bought an EV, it would take me 10 years of fuel savings to get back the extra £5k cost of buying the EV in the first place. And that £5k could instead have been sitting in a savings account which over the course of 10 years would yield about £2.5k in interest. So in effect that's £7.5k extra the EV has cost, adding another 5 years to the payback time. During which time that's another £1800 in interest, adding yet more to the payback time. If I could remember my college calculus, I could calculate the limit and find the actual payback period, but let's just say it's probably approaching 20 years, shall we?

 

[PJ87]

Since we're talking about Octopus, their Tracker tariff is around (usually slightly under) 20p a unit. So if you are using most of your electricity during the day, switching to Go makes no sense. Of course I agree that if you have an EV and do a high mileage, you want to be on Go.

But for those of use who do a low mileage (I do about 5000 miles a year), there is no economically valid reason to get an EV. If I bought an EV, it would take me 10 years of fuel savings to get back the extra £5k cost of buying the EV in the first place. And that £5k could instead have been sitting in a savings account which over the course of 10 years would yield about £2.5k in interest. So in effect that's £7.5k extra the EV has cost, adding another 5 years to the payback time. During which time that's another £1800 in interest, adding yet more to the payback time. If I could remember my college calculus, I could calculate the limit and find the actual payback period, but let's just say it's probably approaching 20 years, shall we?

Tracker is only viable if you have a battery storage. Wait until you see winter prices

You can only claim that on interest now , what would it have been the past 10 or so years with the interest rates sub 0.5%?

If these rates remain then yes but any drop eats into the saving

Also we have had a massive energy spike and it's still viable for high mileage users

But also some just want to get them to reduce their emissions .. it's not entirely money based

I mean some people spend £50k on cars when a 20k car would suit them . Nobody lectures them on right think how much money you are wasting in interest .

Also second hand EVs are coming in similar to second hand ice cars ATM so the difference doesn't take long to make back

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Or an old Granada?

Don’t by a modern car if you don’t like them

That's probably in classic car territory now .

I get your point. I wonder what the tipping point is of cars improving in terms of reliability, efficiency, good tech (open to debate of course), and cars being over filled with tech?

 

[PIng]

Cars are far to complicated now.
to many things taken out of the drivers control.
Has any oem got the nerve to build a basic car at a lower cost ?

Dacia apparently make cars with only things that drivers need or that they are compelled to supply. They get excellent reviews and are amongst the cheapest. They're owned by Renault.

 

[cliveb]

Tracker is only viable if you have a battery storage. Wait until you see winter prices

You can only claim that on interest now , what would it have been the past 10 or so years with the interest rates sub 0.5%?

If these rates remain then yes but any drop eats into the saving

Also we have had a massive energy spike and it's still viable for high mileage users

But also some just want to get them to reduce their emissions .. it's not entirely money based

I mean some people spend £50k on cars when a 20k car would suit them . Nobody lectures them on right think how much money you are wasting in interest .

Also second hand EVs are coming in similar to second hand ice cars ATM so the difference doesn't take long to make back

I don't understand where you get the idea that Tracker needs battery storage. The rate is the same for the entire day (but changes day by day according to wholesale prices).
I think perhaps you're getting mixed up with Agile, which of course changes every half hour.
I am fully aware that winter prices might push Tracker up (and they'll push other tariffs up, too), but for now that's the tariff I prefer to be on.

As for interest rates and what they might do in the future. Yes, you are right that nobody knows what will happen. But I suspect that perhaps you're young enough that you don't appreciate that the very low interest rates we've had for the last 15 years were very much an exception - interest rates have historically always been much higher. Any financial planning I make that takes interest rates into account has to make some assumptions, and a reasonable assumption is that they will remain fairly high for the foreseeable future.

If used EV prices really do become comparable to used ICE, then that does make things interesting, and I will reassess when the time comes to replace my car.

 

[PJ87]

I don't understand where you get the idea that Tracker needs battery storage. The rate is the same for the entire day (but changes day by day according to wholesale prices).
I think perhaps you're getting mixed up with Agile, which of course changes every half hour.
I am fully aware that winter prices might push Tracker up (and they'll push other tariffs up, too), but for now that's the tariff I prefer to be on.

As for interest rates and what they might do in the future. Yes, you are right that nobody knows what will happen. But I suspect that perhaps you're young enough that you don't appreciate that the very low interest rates we've had for the last 15 years were very much an exception - interest rates have historically always been much higher. Any financial planning I make that takes interest rates into account has to make some assumptions, and a reasonable assumption is that they will remain fairly high for the foreseeable future.

If used EV prices really do become comparable to used ICE, then that does make things interesting, and I will reassess when the time comes to replace my car.

You can only judge history by the most recent tho surely? Low rates for 15 years was a new trend it wasn't like say a 2 year temp measure

Personally I can see them leveling out at 4% long term

Yes I am confusing tracker with agile however it's the same principle it tracks wholesale and the cap is now what £1 a kw? It can and does reach that at times

 

[cliveb]

You can only judge history by the most recent tho surely? Low rates for 15 years was a new trend it wasn't like say a 2 year temp measure

Personally I can see them leveling out at 4% long term

Yes I am confusing tracker with agile however it's the same principle it tracks wholesale and the cap is now what £1 a kw? It can and does reach that at times

Yes, tracker has a price cap of £1/kWh in the T&Cs. But it's never reached that.
It was higher than the standard cap for 21 days last winter (28th Nov 22 to 18th Dec 23, including one spike at 75p on 12th Dec).
Apart from that, it's always been lower than the Ofgem price cap:

 

[PJ87]

Yes, tracker has a price cap of £1/kWh in the T&Cs. But it's never reached that.
It was higher than the standard cap for 21 days last winter (28th Nov 22 to 18th Dec 23, including one spike at 75p on 12th Dec).
Apart from that, it's always been lower than the Ofgem price cap:

View attachment 48784

The old tracker was much better. A cap of like 40p so was least reasonable if it was high

 

[bobmac]

If I bought an EV, it would take me 10 years of fuel savings to get back the extra £5k cost of buying the EV in the first place. And that £5k could instead have been sitting in a savings account which over the course of 10 years would yield about £2.5k in interest. So in effect that's £7.5k extra the EV has cost, adding another 5 years to the payback time. During which time that's another £1800 in interest, adding yet more to the payback time. If I could remember my college calculus, I could calculate the limit and find the actual payback period, but let's just say it's probably approaching 20 years, shall we?

Fuel savings.
Even at your figures (which I don't agree with) you're saving £10 per week.
So you open a savings account and pay the £40 per month in.
After a year, you'll have £480
5 years £2,400 and so on.
You don't sit getting nothing for 10 years and suddenly get your 5k back.
And that's just fuel savings at today's prices.

How about the ULEZ charge £12.50 per day
Road tax
Oil change
Servicing
Cam belt replacement
I wonder what that all adds up to per year.

 

[PJ87]

Fuel savings.
Even at your figures (which I don't agree with) you're saving £10 per week.
So you open a savings account and pay the £40 per month in.
After a year, you'll have £480
5 years £2,400 and so on.
You don't sit getting nothing for 10 years and suddenly get your 5k back.
And that's just fuel savings at today's prices.

How about the ULEZ charge £12.50 per day
Road tax
Oil change
Servicing
Cam belt replacement
I wonder what that all adds up to per year.

Whilst I do agree in parts Bob for balance ulez isn't payable for the majority of cars (02 petrol onwards 16 onwards diesel)
Servicing isnt that cheap the main dealers still try charge you full whack
Tax from 2025 will be introduced to EVs

But that goes back to us being pushed to EVs but the tap being turned off to make it attractive

Very interesting point about the interest tho.. if you put all the savings into account each year how much would you actually lose compared to leaving it in the savings long term? Seems to have been completely overlooked thus far

 

[bobmac]

I know road tax will start in 2025 but we're talking about todays prices.
An oil change and inspection for my Skoda this year was £195 and a full service £255, so not cheap.
I was just suggesting that savings on fuel alone aren't the whole picture.

We all know that Evs aren't cheap, the range isn't enough for some and we need more reliable chargers but the boffins know all that.
When I first looked at EVs there were 500-600 new chargers being installed every month. Last month 1,999 were installed.

Interesting stat...
In 1910, there were 100,000 cars in Britain
The first filling station in England wasn't opened until November 1919

 

[cliveb]

Fuel savings.
Even at your figures (which I don't agree with) you're saving £10 per week.
So you open a savings account and pay the £40 per month in.
After a year, you'll have £480
5 years £2,400 and so on.
You don't sit getting nothing for 10 years and suddenly get your 5k back.
And that's just fuel savings at today's prices.

You make a good point about the interest earned on the fuel savings, which I admit I hadn't factored in. After 10 years it adds about another £300 to the pot, so probably knocks a few months off the overall payback period.

 

[PJ87]

I know road tax will start in 2025 but we're talking about todays prices.
An oil change and inspection for my Skoda this year was £195 and a full service £255, so not cheap.
I was just suggesting that savings on fuel alone aren't the whole picture.

We all know that Evs aren't cheap, the range isn't enough for some and we need more reliable chargers but the boffins know all that.
When I first looked at EVs there were 500-600 new chargers being installed every month. Last month 1,999 were installed.

Interesting stat...
In 1910, there were 100,000 cars in Britain
The first filling station in England wasn't opened until November 1919

See for balance service on my seat with MOT is £200-250 but I do use a mechanic I've used for years

However the Corsa? I have to go main dealer .. £225 they charged me for a service

To do what exactly? Year one service was £100 but some paid £50 it depended on dealer as they didn't have a clue what to charge

 

[PJ87]

You make a good point about the interest earned on the fuel savings, which I admit I hadn't factored in. After 10 years it adds about another £300 to the pot, so probably knocks a few months off the overall payback period.

You raise a good point about milage Vs payback. Only ofc if your worried about such things

Company cars is where they were seeing the most switch to EVs . Company car tax so low

Salary sacrifice for EVs are around so people save on their tax to get them

Schemes like that are needed

I will never buy another ice car but I also won't replace my ice car until I find the perfect replacement in 5-10 years

 

[clubchamp98]

Is a Dacia not what you are describing or looking for?

No I want a nice car but just stripped down a bit.
Some of the things can’t be turned off that stopped me buying certain cars.
The driver should always have total control of everything.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

No I want a nice car but just stripped down a bit.
Some of the things can’t be turned off that stopped me buying certain cars.
The driver should always have total control of everything.

A Mercedes, pre plastic bumper ?

 

[jim8flog]

Commercial EV chargers are WAY more than double the cost of electricty at home.

Notwithstanding that, I see your point.
A typical petrol car costs about 15p a mile for fuel.
An EV does about 4 miles per kWh (that's being generous), and I currently pay around 20p per unit for electricity, so that's 5p a mile.
Since a typical EV costs at least £5k more than an equivalent petrol car, you need to do at least 50,000 miles before you've broken even.


But if you go onto an EV tariff, you pay more than the standard rate for daytime electricity. If you can't shift your usage pattern easily, and don't do a high mileage, an EV tariff makes no sense.

These days I barely do 5000 miles a year

I used a popular website for the figures and they were comparing like for like (i.e. the same car one petrol and the other electric)
Their figures were 7.7p per mile electric and 9.3 per mile petrol

 

[jim8flog]

Dacia apparently make cars with only things that drivers need or that they are compelled to supply. They get excellent reviews and are amongst the cheapest. They're owned by Renault.

Trouble comes when you read the reviews for Dacia in regards to driveability. Certainly put me off looking at one

Tata make such a vehicle but I believe it will not pass the regs for cars in this country.

 

[PJ87]

These days I barely do 5000 miles a year

I used a popular website for the figures and they were comparing like for like (i.e. the same car one petrol and the other electric)
Their figures were 7.7p per mile electric and 9.3 per mile petrol

Websites can be very unreliable tho, who would supply your energy. Do you have a smart meter, would you charge overnight at home?

If you moved onto an EV tariff for example that 7p per mile becomes 3p per mile