Supplementary Scores

[Deleted member 15344]

The tee placement on any given day isn't really a new problem though....it existed under Congu and I'm sure historically many supplementaries were submitted across the land from tees that were well over 100 yards shorter than the measured length of a course.

It’s also worth noting that not many people put supplementary cards in as well so the length of the course wasn’t too much of an issue

Our Greenstaff now highlight each day if the course is set up for cards to be submitted on the course information line and website

Once the initial fad and flurry of people putting in cards dies down it will go back to how it was before - people will just use the comps to put cards in

 

[rulefan]

Many (if not most) courses have their permanent distance marker as far back on the teeing grounds as they can go - perhaps due to an obsession with length on the scorecard. As such, there is no going backwards to offset going forwards. With tees of the day commonly placed well in front of the permanent distance marker, it's easy to accumulate 200 yards difference. Per my earlier comment (#75) ideally courses would get rerated based on how they are actually setup from day-to-day, but clubs don't want to lose yardage from the scorecard.

Also note: "The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole."

The rating system requires that fixed markers are a minimum of 4 yards from the back of the tee box. If the club's markers are too far back the distance is adjusted.

 

[nickjdavis]

It’s also worth noting that not many people put supplementary cards in as well so the length of the course wasn’t too much of an issue

Our Greenstaff now highlight each day if the course is set up for cards to be submitted on the course information line and website

Once the initial fad and flurry of people putting in cards dies down it will go back to how it was before - people will just use the comps to put cards in

We historically have had a reasonable number of regular supplementary submitters....as a proportion of the overall club membership...they were small...but they did submit regularly.

We sadly have a disconnect simply because the running of the golf club/course as a business is separate from the running of the competitions and management of handicaps. Hence the greenstaff often do things out on course without reference to the committee...e.g. removing dropping zones without notice....thus causing a disconnect between the layout of the course and what the local rules advise players to do.

Regarding the third point...I'm not sure you are correct....now that we all have apps, whether it be the England Golf app or apps that are part of Handicapping Software, players will be aware that they have functions that allow them to submit scores....rather than (as it was in our case) a player needing to go into the clubhouse to sign the book expressing their intention to submit a supplementary, they now have the facility to do this at their fingertips whilst sat in their car in the car park...i think it will drive an overall increase in supplemetaries/general play cards that are submitted.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We historically have had a reasonable number of regular supplementary submitters....as a proportion of the overall club membership...they were small...but they did submit regularly.

We sadly have a disconnect simply because the running of the golf club/course as a business is separate from the running of the competitions and management of handicaps. Hence the greenstaff often do things out on course without reference to the committee...e.g. removing dropping zones without notice....thus causing a disconnect between the layout of the course and what the local rules advise players to do.

Regarding the third point...I'm not sure you are correct....now that we all have apps, whether it be the England Golf app or apps that are part of Handicapping Software, players will be aware that they have functions that allow them to submit scores....rather than (as it was in our case) a player needing to go into the clubhouse to sign the book expressing their intention to submit a supplementary, they now have the facility to do this at their fingertips whilst sat in their car in the car park...i think it will drive an overall increase in supplemetaries/general play cards that are submitted.

IG and it’s APP had the facility to do that before WHS - supplementary cards could always be entered via the PSI or via the IG APP

People will do it now because it’s been highlighted as something that’s new when ultimately it’s just a name change.

 

[2blue]

We historically have had a reasonable number of regular supplementary submitters....as a proportion of the overall club membership...they were small...but they did submit regularly.

We sadly have a disconnect simply because the running of the golf club/course as a business is separate from the running of the competitions and management of handicaps. Hence the greenstaff often do things out on course without reference to the committee...e.g. removing dropping zones without notice....thus causing a disconnect between the layout of the course and what the local rules advise players to do.

Regarding the third point...I'm not sure you are correct....now that we all have apps, whether it be the England Golf app or apps that are part of Handicapping Software, players will be aware that they have functions that allow them to submit scores....rather than (as it was in our case) a player needing to go into the clubhouse to sign the book expressing their intention to submit a supplementary, they now have the facility to do this at their fingertips whilst sat in their car in the car park...i think it will drive an overall increase in supplemetaries/general play cards that are submitted.

It'll be absolutely THIS ^^^^^^ once the 'penny drops' that you need to submit lots of cards if you want your H/cap to closely match where your game is currently. I doubt I'll play a round without submitting a score or being in a Comp..... times are a changing.

 

[YandaB]

The rating system requires that fixed markers are a minimum of 4 yards from the back of the tee box. If the club's markers are too far back the distance is adjusted.

Can I ask why is the focus just on the tees? The game is to get the ball in the hole from the tees and whilst the tees may move around a bit, the hole can move much further (on some courses at least). Surely the objective would be to keep the overall sum of tee to hole lengths within a 100 yard limit?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It'll be absolutely THIS ^^^^^^ once the 'penny drops' that you need to submit lots of cards if you want your H/cap to closely match where your game is currently. I doubt I'll play a round without submitting a score or being in a Comp..... times are a changing.

Sorry but when was that decided or even confirmed ?

You don’t “need” to do anything as such

Everything will as it was with any handicap system will be depending on the amount of golf people play

And there was nothing stopping you from putting in cards before - why didn’t you do it then ? Prob same reason as many others - they want to have the mix of social and competitive golf

 

[2blue]

2blue said:
It'll be absolutely THIS ^^^^^^ once the 'penny drops' that you need to submit lots of cards if you want your H/cap to closely match where your game is currently. I doubt I'll play a round without submitting a score or being in a Comp..... times are a changing.

Sorry but when was that decided or even confirmed ?

You don’t “need” to do anything as such

Everything will as it was with any handicap system will be depending on the amount of golf people play

And there was nothing stopping you from putting in cards before - why didn’t you do it then? Prob same reason as many others - they want to have the mix of social and competitive golf

It's the way WHS works..... the more cards you submit... the more accurate your HI will be as it responds much quicker than the CONGU system...... that's one of the main reasons we changed. .
I routinely submit 60 or 70 Q cards a year...... gonna be even more in the future especially if we get rated for the winter!!

 

[Leftie5.6]

Many (if not most) courses have their permanent distance marker as far back on the teeing grounds as they can go - perhaps due to an obsession with length on the scorecard. As such, there is no going backwards to offset going forwards. With tees of the day commonly placed well in front of the permanent distance marker, it's easy to accumulate 200 yards difference. Per my earlier comment (#75) ideally courses would get rerated based on how they are actually setup from day-to-day, but clubs don't want to lose yardage from the scorecard.

Also note: "The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole."

That is bang on for my home course wjemather. Some of the perm dist markers don’t have 2 club lengths of tee box behind them.

 

[Leftie5.6]

The tee placement on any given day isn't really a new problem though....it existed under Congu and I'm sure historically many supplementaries were submitted across the land from tees that were well over 100 yards shorter than the measured length of a course.

Agree. And if everyone is cavalier with the rules what harm is being done. Almost none in truth. But it does then make it subjective as to what other golf rules you choose to bend.

 

[Leftie5.6]

It's the way WHS works..... the more cards you submit... the more accurate your HI will be as it responds much quicker than the CONGU system...... that's one of the main reasons we changed. .
I routinely submit 60 or 70 Q cards a year...... gonna be even more in the future especially if we get rated for the winter!!

Wow, the most I have managed is 41 qualifiers in a year. 60 or 70 Impressive! I have 80 or so scores on my EG app for 2018-20, showing a low of 4.1 (very brief) and a high of 8.2 (very brief). I’ve been fairly consistent under old system at 6 with the odd forays into 5 and 7. I’m not sure WHS is more accurate but it’s certainly more volatile.

 

[2blue]

Wow, the most I have managed is 41 qualifiers in a year. 60 or 70 Impressive! I have 80 or so scores on my EG app for 2018-20, showing a low of 4.1 (very brief) and a high of 8.2 (very brief). I’ve been fairly consistent under old system at 6 with the odd forays into 5 and 7. I’m not sure WHS is more accurate but it’s certainly more volatile.

Had the most in my Club at 136..... another guy just 4 behind..... yeah, 'tis a lot of golf

 

[jim8flog]

My understanding is that these adjustments are not to be applied ad-hoc on a daily basis, and require approval from the local authority. They are also for temporary course changes only, e.g. teeing ground refurbishment.

I suspect many courses are measured from the back of the teeing grounds and will need to be remeasured (and then rerated) in accordance with WHS rules and how they are actually setup.

With the UHS the course assessors were supposed to advise clubs to move the fixed markers if they were put at the furthest point at the back of the tee. Comparing our yardages on an old and a new card this looks to have been done on our course.

 

[wjemather]

The rating system requires that fixed markers are a minimum of 4 yards from the back of the tee box. If the club's markers are too far back the distance is adjusted.

With the UHS the course assessors were supposed to advise clubs to move the fixed markers if they were put at the furthest point at the back of the tee. Comparing our yardages on an old and a new card this looks to have been done on our course.

All too often raters do not want to get into a conflict with clubs (for whom yardage changes incur lots of expense) and just accept(ed) all kinds of "anomalies".

 

[D-S]

I was part of our County’s rating team and measurements were all over the place. We refused to rate a couple of courses until they were remaeasured and they produced new certificates. A couple of courses had been playing qualifying competitions for years several hundred yards in front of the measured blocks, we had to send a couple of greenkeepers out once to find the official markers as none of the yardages matched up to reality. There were many instances where the markers were falling off the back of the tee and there was no way that there was 2 club lengths behind them, we adjusted yardages accordingly.

 

[nickjdavis]

Agree. And if everyone is cavalier with the rules what harm is being done. Almost none in truth. But it does then make it subjective as to what other golf rules you choose to bend.

But can you really blame a player if he goes out to play with the intention of submitting a supplementary score and the tees are a bit forward? Most wouldn't notice the cumulative effect of 6 yards on every hole. You cant blame a player for not knowing the intricacies of the rules of handicapping and what constitutes a course that is set up appropriately for qualifying round to take place....most of our members would know about temporary greens rendering a comp non qualifying....very few would know about shortened courses needing to have adjustments to Course Ratings or SSS (in the old days).

Ultimately that's a course set-up issue and greenkeepers taking notice of requirements given to them by the committee.

 

[rulefan]

All too often raters do not want to get into a conflict with clubs (for whom yardage changes incur lots of expense) and just accept(ed) all kinds of "anomalies".

What evidence have you got for that? How often have you accompanied a rating team?
Incidentally, the county will not force a club to move the tees but will rate the course as if they have been and add a report for England Golf. Most of the time it is only the longest tees that are affected.

 

[Leftie5.6]

But can you really blame a player if he goes out to play with the intention of submitting a supplementary score and the tees are a bit forward? Most wouldn't notice the cumulative effect of 6 yards on every hole. You cant blame a player for not knowing the intricacies of the rules of handicapping and what constitutes a course that is set up appropriately for qualifying round to take place....most of our members would know about temporary greens rendering a comp non qualifying....very few would know about shortened courses needing to have adjustments to Course Ratings or SSS (in the old days).

Ultimately that's a course set-up issue and greenkeepers taking notice of requirements given to them by the committee.

Accept/agree all of that. It seems there are many clubs bending on this one and some county reps complicit. There is in truth very little harm on the specifics. But this doesn’t speak well as to the integrity of the game and there is the whiff of hypocrisy - those same committees are picking and choosing when to follow the rules and then sit as judge and jury on players’ rules issues.

 

[rulefan]

and some county reps complicit.

What evidence do you have?

 

[Leftie5.6]

What evidence do you have?

I said “It seems...” from what is being said here. But as I posted, my home club has markers with insufficient ground to play 2 club lengths behind in an attempt to extend the length of the course. The county accept the measured length.