Submitting scores on a Captain's Away Day

[PNWokingham]

There are 2 ways people cheat for handicap purposes if they want to keep their handicap high to gain advantage in "bigger" comps:

1. Putting a card in during a comp or supplemetary and scoring poorly to boost their Index
2. Not putting in good cards that would help for handicap either in comps or suplementary

Cheats can do this no matter what rules people try and enforce.

Cheats are cheats are cheats. People not wanting to put in cards for whatever reasons such - to have more fun, be more relaxed, to have gimmies, because poor ground conditions, other poor weather etc etc is not the same thing as cheating. The use of the word cheating in this thread is pathetic. To be a cheat, you need an actual event. For example, to quote the one actual that was mentioned, if Bob goes on the Captains away day and wins with 46 points but refuses to put a card in - then that is cheating. I suspect Bob will also not be very popular and likely not be invited next year. However, most of these well known bandits that win "big comps" are likely much more subtle and massage their handicaps higher over time to peak for the big events, then these few good scores will likely not count too much for handicap and can easily be massaged out by a flurry of poor rounds in the weeks that follow - eat, sleep, repeat

 

[The Fader]

Organised comp, qualifying format, played to RoG, if a CH/PH is written on your card you should expect it to count towards your handicap
Organised comp, qualifying format, not played to RoG, if a CH/PH is written on your card you should not expect it to count towards your handicap
Organised comp, non-qualifying format, played to RoG, if a CH/PH is written on your card you should not expect it to count towards your handicap

If only you had posted this on page 1.

Cut through all the 11 pages and counting of blather.

 

[Orikoru]

It's typical though, whenever I do decide to put a card in, I play crap, and when I don't I play well and regret not doing it. I don't think it's crumbling under pressure, it's just that the golf gods like to fart in my face.

 

[Backsticks]

So - not putting a card in because you want to have a laugh and enjoy the day is cheating, but putting a card in when you're having a laugh, enjoying the day too much and likely to play poorly is also cheating. Glad we've cleared that up. So the lesson is, golf must be taken deathly seriously at all times.

Yes this is the point that EG really need to come out clearly on.

I heard the National club Golfer podcast guys talking about the very same thing a few months ago.
And it has been left grey. And thus, confusion, and different people making their own solutions - because the guidance is not clear. And some getting upset, as they have a different view, accusations of cheating, etc.

While I like the core of WHS : 8 from 20, CR, Slope; but the GP versus Competition scores is a disaster. I will still state, just from finger in the wind judgement, that the vast majority are dealing with it by not at all or exceptionally only, putting in GP scores. So their handicaps remain credible, as based on competition scores. Or at least no less credible than we had under UHS. Some are putting in legitimate GP score when they play. As WHS would like. Some are putting in GP scores, but, if not really trying, it is, through no malicious intent, nevertheless inflating their handicaps out of proportion to the majority. And yes, a minority are submitting GP scores with the clear intent to manage their hi up or down according to their aim. Out and out cheats.
So what are we to do ? If WHS expects that UK golfers will submit cards for all rounds, obliging us to play with the intention of making our best score, they are dreaming. If they do want us to submit cards, then it can only come, and retain the (lesser, but better than none) integrity of HIs if we manipulate those GP rounds to correct balooning scores back into our normal range.

 

[Slab]

If only you had posted this on page 1.

Cut through all the 11 pages and counting of blather.

Well it’d be pretty mad for anyone to think that a round of golf with say gimmies or mulligans would count towards their handicap

Equally it’s just as mad to enter a comp organised by the club or representative of a club, to play a qualifying format on a qualifying course, use official handicaps… then not have the score count towards the very handicaps they used to decide the winners

A lot of the other talk is tangents from the opening post but essentially if they want non-qual then sell a mulligan or two for the Caps' charity/beer pot, otherwise by default it should count (whether I like it/agree or not)

 

[Orikoru]

Well it’d be pretty mad for anyone to think that a round of golf with say gimmies or mulligans would count towards their handicap

From what I've heard and seen from various sources online, in America they are quite happy to do this.

 

[Backsticks]

In short, are you a handicap manipulator if :
- you play and dont put in a card
or
- you play and put in a card, but dont try to play your best

?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Well it’d be pretty mad for anyone to think that a round of golf with say gimmies or mulligans would count towards their handicap

Equally it’s just as mad to enter a comp organised by the club or representative of a club, to play a qualifying format on a qualifying course, use official handicaps… then not have the score count towards the very handicaps they used to decide the winners

A lot of the other talk is tangents from the opening post but essentially if they want non-qual then sell a mulligan or two for the Caps' charity/beer pot, otherwise by default it should count (whether I like it/agree or not)

There is a difference between a club organised competition which is entered into the clubs ISV and all players sign up to that competition

And an away day organised by a single person where they are potentially looking to raise money or provide a nice day away in a relaxed atmosphere

99% understand the difference


The good thing with WHS is if people want to put a score in during that away day they can now and in most cases people are

 

[Slab]

There is a difference between a club organised competition which is entered into the clubs ISV and all players sign up to that competition

And an away day organised by a single person where they are potentially looking to raise money or provide a nice day away in a relaxed atmosphere

99% understand the difference


The good thing with WHS is if people want to put a score in during that away day they can now and in most cases people are

I agree (mostly) except this isn't a single person. Its the Club Captain organising it in their role as Club Captain & naming the event under their title, which makes it a club comp, not a group of mates having an away day organised by one of the lads

So it goes back to whether they choose to have a qualifying format/scoring for this club comp, if yes then count it, if no then don't

 

[Swango1980]

There are 2 ways people cheat for handicap purposes if they want to keep their handicap high to gain advantage in "bigger" comps:

1. Putting a card in during a comp or supplemetary and scoring poorly to boost their Index
2. Not putting in good cards that would help for handicap either in comps or suplementary

Cheats can do this no matter what rules people try and enforce.

Cheats are cheats are cheats. People not wanting to put in cards for whatever reasons such - to have more fun, be more relaxed, to have gimmies, because poor ground conditions, other poor weather etc etc is not the same thing as cheating. The use of the word cheating in this thread is pathetic. To be a cheat, you need an actual event. For example, to quote the one actual that was mentioned, if Bob goes on the Captains away day and wins with 46 points but refuses to put a card in - then that is cheating. I suspect Bob will also not be very popular and likely not be invited next year. However, most of these well known bandits that win "big comps" are likely much more subtle and massage their handicaps higher over time to peak for the big events, then these few good scores will likely not count too much for handicap and can easily be massaged out by a flurry of poor rounds in the weeks that follow - eat, sleep, repeat

I'm not sure if this conversation has moved drastically in a direction that it doesn't need to be, because someone used the word "cheat" at some point, after which many different scenarios have been discussed in which a golfer may or may not be cheating.

So, taking it all the way back to the OP, if the Captain has decided to NOT play the competition as a Qualifier, then I certainly do not point the finger at anyone and label them as a cheat. And I certainly don't point the finger at anyone playing in the competition and accuse them as a cheat. They are simply turning up and playing an event they were asked to play in, and going with the flow.

What I do say is that it is bad practice for the person organizing the event (played under all the acceptable Rules of Golf) to not play it as a "qualifier". It would appear to go completely against the Rules of Handicapping (which I certainly didn't write, so if anyone has big problems with that, writing to England Golf might be a better option). People can cloud the issue by saying "what if", such as some guy organizing a 3 ball with his mates, a few seniors playing a roll up, etc. But, that sort of stuff really has no meaning to me, in that I agree, I'm not sure where the line starts and stops from something being an organised event in many borderline scenarios. Like, I don't think 3 or 4 mates playing every Sunday NEEDS to be considered an "organised" event, even though there has to be some sort of organisation for them to get there (and perhaps some may disagree with me, and say this would be an organised event?). But, I assume this Captain's Day will be more than 3 or 4 buddies playing. I assume there could be at least 20-30 players playing in a competition officially organised by the Captain. So, in that case, I'm pretty sure the guidelines are that the event should really be played as a qualifier. And, as I said, I don't think any of the reasons given against it would stop anyone from actually playing if it was a qualifier, and they would all just have as much fun. Well, that is all but the guy who wants to qualify for the Amateur Championship, I would see his reasoning for not playing in that very very specific and unlikely scenario, just like I'd see him not turning up for the Sunday Stableford if he was on the verge of qualification.

 

[D-S]

From what I've heard and seen from various sources online, in America they are quite happy to do this.

I’ve seen it umpteen times in the US under the guise of ‘most likely score’.

Most recently with 5 different pairs of US golfers a few weeks ago. although handicaps are in reality meaningless there as they normally either never play in competitions (unless they are gross) or they have to pre qualify to assess their ability as their HIs are so open to manipulation.

 

[The Fader]

Going off on a tangent slightly (which seems to be perfectly acceptable!!) it is crazy that WHS was
based primarily on the American way of doing things.

I have a fairly wide experience of playing with Americans and the majority of single figure cappers
can't get anywhere near breaking 80 without mulligans, generous gimmes, dubious drops and an inability
to count past 6!!

Meanwhile the 15-24 cappers would take your money most of the time!!

But WHS is what it is. Good or bad. Those that want to manipulate their index can and will whatever checks and balances
are put in place. Unfortunately it's just part of some people's make up.

---

 

[Swango1980]

Going off on a tangent slightly (which seems to be perfectly acceptable!!) it is crazy that WHS was
based primarily on the American way of doing things.

I have a fairly wide experience of playing with Americans and the majority of single figure cappers
can't get anywhere near breaking 80 without mulligans, generous gimmes, dubious drops and an inability
to count past 6!!

Meanwhile the 15-24 cappers would take your money most of the time!!

But WHS is what it is. Good or bad. Those that want to manipulate their index can and will whatever checks and balances
are put in place. Unfortunately it's just part of some people's make up.

---

Yeah, but is the very aspect of the American system that seems to make that accusation true, not the very element we didn't adopt??? Not yet anyway.

I assumed all their handicaps are dodgy because of gimmes, mulligans, dubious drops or whatever else they get up to. More generally, being allowed to write a "Most Likely Score". We can't do that. So, we've only really adopted the theoretical parts of Slope, using the best 8 scores out of 20 (was America using best 10 before?).

 

[Bamberdele2.0]

Yeah, so when Big Dave playing off 20 shoots 45 points and wins Captain's Away Day, everyone is delighted for him, as they're all having great fun and the drinks are flowing.

When they then all turn up to play the Monthly Medal the next day, Big Dave is still off 20. Now that the golfers are not in "fun mode", there is plenty of back chat like "Big Dave shot 45 points yesterday, and he is still blooming playing off 20 today, what a joke. Bandit"

My belief is, that if Big Dave shoots 45 points and gets cut from 20 to 18 or 19, everyone will still have an equal amount of fun on Captain's Away Day. And they will also all be highly satisfied the following day when Big Dave is playing of an updated handicap. Sounds like everyone is a winner.

But, you seem to be very selective in what rules you go along with. I've seen you make some very harsh assessments of people / organizations as soon as they don't follow the rules. On another thread, I think you were very clear about a rule being broken about practicing on the course before a round, even though many used "common sense" and felt it was one that shouldn't even really be punished as it is likely to make no material difference. But, at the end of the day, the rules are the rules (and I can't argue with that). But it seems like this argument is only worth being made if it suits your own opinion.

You don’t sound like a very fun person to go away with on a captains away day.

For this reason, I am out

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree (mostly) except this isn't a single person. Its the Club Captain organising it in their role as Club Captain & naming the event under their title, which makes it a club comp, not a group of mates having an away day organised by one of the lads

So it goes back to whether they choose to have a qualifying format/scoring for this club comp, if yes then count it, if no then don't

That’s how our capts away day works - he organises it along with his vice , it has nothing to do with the HC committee, it’s not a club competition- it’s a social away day

As I said there is a difference and most sensible people using common sense understand that


And if people want to put in a GP card during the away day they can , just like on a society day or a swindle trip away

 

[Backsticks]

We have been left in a mess. I am sure EG knows it, but they cannot square the circle : GP score all the times works, if you loosen the rules strings. But they dont want to do sanction rules laxity. And it goes against the instinct of we the ordinary club golfers, so some would view it as cheating. Even though it isnt because it improves the accuracy of your handicap, rather than distorts it. People are voting with their feet at the moment - and not putting in cards. Putting in cards all the time here will only work when everyone understand and subscribes to mulligans, gimmees, 6 as a max score shortcuts etc. And that will be an acrimonious transition.

 

[Bamberdele2.0]

So big Dave shoots his 45pts dosnt put his card in and wins the medal on Saturday. Members not happy.

But what of Little Dave who decided to put his cards in !
After 12 pints the night before he goes out and shoots 21 pts that goes on his best 20 but he’s losing his best score !
He gets a shot back and wins the medal on Saturday. Members not happy

Little Dave definitely knew what he was doing

 

[sunshine]

How has this thread got to 235 replies

My key takeaways:

• Going on a "fun" away day and not submitting a card is cheating.
• If you are submitting a card, having "fun" e.g. drinking alcohol is cheating as it means you are not playing to your best ability.

Conclusion: Don't have fun, because inevitably it means you are a cheat. Golf must be deadly serious.

 

[IanM]

Well it’d be pretty mad for anyone to think that a round of golf with say gimmies would count towards their handicap

It's coming! MLS

 

[Slab]

That’s how our capts away day works - he organises it along with his vice , it has nothing to do with the HC committee, it’s not a club competition- it’s a social away day

As I said there is a difference and most sensible people using common sense understand that


And if people want to put in a GP card during the away day they can , just like on a society day or a swindle trip away

I guess it just appears differently to me. If it walks like a duck etc etc

The event is only taking place & being held because of the Club Captain arranging it in their capacity as Club Captain to mark the Captains Away Day, whether it meets the h/cap qual criteria or not, and uses the club handicaps overseen by the HC committee to determine the winner, how can it not be a 'club comp'

If exactly the same players went to the same course on the same date, all still arranged by the same person (let’s call him Bob), played the same format, to the RoG with the same scores, all in the name of Big Bobs B/day Bash… I couldn’t care less if any/all/none of them stick their card in

But it’s not, it’s a club comp for the reasons stated, so whether I like it or not if it meets the qual criteria then as a club comp the scores should count under the handicap rules



edit to add: I think we pretty much of the same opinion and agree on everything (freedom to choose etc etc) all except whether the day is a 'club comp' or not, which could take away that freedom to submit or not