richart
Major Champion
I wasn't going to buy a new pair of shoes to go with white socks. Not even for Sunningdale, so up yours to the fashion experts on here.
Sock gate (again)
- Thread starter Jacko_G
- Start date
Pin-seeker
Well-known member
What
colour socks do you wear with your crocks Phil? 😂
Jimaroid
Journeyman Pro
Your desired implication is wrong. Cheating is a means to gain an advantage, not following a rule is moral transgression. They are not the same thing even though they may lead to the same punishments.
Whether people like it or not, the inability to follow a rule is a question of moralities and if you can't follow the rules your credibility, honesty and character are under question. We have been cultured to follow rules to test our moral judgements for thousands of years. If you mentally deconstruct what this means, clubs were (and still are) within their rights to cast an eye of suspicion over anyone that cannot follow a simple rule. All clubs; whether they are football, golf, tennis, social, religious, it doesn't matter which, all clubs are alignments of people with shared principals and transgression of them is wrong. Wilfull transgression of any rule is disrespectful and immoral, it's not always cheating but it's a close run thing.
Personally I detest white socks and will never be seen wearing an ankle sock in my life. But I am happy to put my personal fashion reservations aside in order to respect a rule of play. Respect is earned, and many historic clubs laid down rules in order to show respect to a principal, person or ideology that has been lost in history. They have a right to enforce a rule of respect as much as we have a right to complain about it.
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
This....
However, whinging about it on a forum [even a golf related one] will make no contribution whatsoever to change coming about...
D
Deleted member 25172
Guest
Wow.
This massive wave of change that some people are really keen for makes me think of the struggles of the suffragettes.
This massive wave of change that some people are really keen for makes me think of the struggles of the suffragettes.
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
Sorry but it does not question the morality in the slightest about following rules ..
Rules need to change and adapt over time
Prime example.. when Apple brought out the iPod and iTunes for the first time people would copy their cds onto their new gadget
At the time that was technically breaking copy write laws. For something legally sold in the country
They had to change the law (the rule if you please) to fit the new purpose due to a changing world.
Rules need to constantly be changed and updated to fit the every adapting world
How did the new rule changes come about this year if not questioned, challenged and maybe even broken in the past?
How many people left the flag in the hole in a bounce game or when practicing ?
How many people (when a course is dead ) have dropped a few balls and practiced when the club policy is clearly no practicing on the course
A friend of mine was told to buy black socks when he had white socks on once.. I then threw some black socks in my bag (found them other day) so if I was ever asked I would place them over the white socks on my feet .
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
Should have followed the rules apparently
D
Deleted member 25172
Guest
Yep, the issues they had were just about as serious as this one, barely.
GB72
Money List Winner
The thing is that the press and social media love to sensationalise in order to support a point of view or a stereotype.
Take another example. I use an e-cigarette. Have done for years. If you look at vaping in the press then it is all about kids vaping, e-cigs exploding etc. No headlines about those who have quit smoking, how the NHS, the Royal College of Physicians etc support them or how there are now vape shops in hospitals. The press and social media want the sensationalist headline and that is what we have here.
‘Golfer forced to change his socks to be allowed to play’ is just gold dust to those looking to enforce the golfing stereotype that so many non-golfers see. It suits their agenda and is perfect click bait. You must be blind to not see how this impacts on the image and expansion of the game as a whole.
You can take it further. Local developer wants to build on your course. That is when the stories emphasising how the course is only used by an upper class, out of date elite start to be wheeled out to influence public opinion. It may not be true but it is a stereotype that people are comfortable believing and so their support moves to the developer and the housing plan rather than maintaining a valuable local sporting resource.
Yes, clubs have the right to have whatever rules they want but that does not mean that they should not be questioned. That is what any reasonable person would do when faced with the absurd or the ridiculous. Yes, as a paying guest then all you can do is express and opinion then take it or leave it but as a member of a club, you have the right to challenge what you feel is ludicrous but herein lies the problem. Too many people are willing to plod along, not saying a thing because that is tradition or that is how it has always been. That attitude will not help grow the sport.
Take rugby as a comparative. 20 years ago, a rugby club was pretty much men only and a hive of racist, sexist misogynistic opinion. Go to one now and there are families there, kids running around and it is a far more pleasant place for most to be. Yes, the old attitudes still exist but the need to make the club a place for families to go was seen as essential to grow the sport and develop the game. The clubs are becoming parts of the community rather than isolated bastions of out outdated views and attitudes. Golf needs to take a long look at itself if it wants to break into being a mainstream sport.
I have said it before and I stick by it, the 2 biggest hurdles to golf expanding as a sport are golf clubs and their members. A massive generalisation I know but it is the few that taint the opinion of the many as it is the extreme examples that are more generally reported.
Take another example. I use an e-cigarette. Have done for years. If you look at vaping in the press then it is all about kids vaping, e-cigs exploding etc. No headlines about those who have quit smoking, how the NHS, the Royal College of Physicians etc support them or how there are now vape shops in hospitals. The press and social media want the sensationalist headline and that is what we have here.
‘Golfer forced to change his socks to be allowed to play’ is just gold dust to those looking to enforce the golfing stereotype that so many non-golfers see. It suits their agenda and is perfect click bait. You must be blind to not see how this impacts on the image and expansion of the game as a whole.
You can take it further. Local developer wants to build on your course. That is when the stories emphasising how the course is only used by an upper class, out of date elite start to be wheeled out to influence public opinion. It may not be true but it is a stereotype that people are comfortable believing and so their support moves to the developer and the housing plan rather than maintaining a valuable local sporting resource.
Yes, clubs have the right to have whatever rules they want but that does not mean that they should not be questioned. That is what any reasonable person would do when faced with the absurd or the ridiculous. Yes, as a paying guest then all you can do is express and opinion then take it or leave it but as a member of a club, you have the right to challenge what you feel is ludicrous but herein lies the problem. Too many people are willing to plod along, not saying a thing because that is tradition or that is how it has always been. That attitude will not help grow the sport.
Take rugby as a comparative. 20 years ago, a rugby club was pretty much men only and a hive of racist, sexist misogynistic opinion. Go to one now and there are families there, kids running around and it is a far more pleasant place for most to be. Yes, the old attitudes still exist but the need to make the club a place for families to go was seen as essential to grow the sport and develop the game. The clubs are becoming parts of the community rather than isolated bastions of out outdated views and attitudes. Golf needs to take a long look at itself if it wants to break into being a mainstream sport.
I have said it before and I stick by it, the 2 biggest hurdles to golf expanding as a sport are golf clubs and their members. A massive generalisation I know but it is the few that taint the opinion of the many as it is the extreme examples that are more generally reported.
Jimaroid
Journeyman Pro
I think you've misunderstood. Of course rules do and should evolve but transgression of a current rule that exists is transgression whether it is liked or not. You cannot, for example, say to someone "You were caught driving at 80mph but maybe in 10 years time that rule may have changed so on you go". Rules have to be enforced as they currently stand. And yes, rules are tested and stretched and slowly they adapt. That is all good but it is not the same as assessing a transgression of a rule in effect which has to be assessed within the present, not the future.
Rules adapt through continual observation and analysis. It is less common (but not impossible) for rules to change because people intentionally transgress. Continuing with the speed limit analogy, everyone intentionally breaks the speed limits but they haven't changed, for example.
One of my golf club reviews its rules every year and, each year the dress code survey is performed and slowly, very slowly, we are moving towards allowing trainers and jeans in the clubhouse. This is the right way to do it in my opinion. It is not right for me to turn up in trainers and jeans every day and kick off about a stupid rule. It is by the club working within itself and working with the principals of its members that we always move forward.
Full disclosure: I don't own any jeans because I'm a snob.
robinthehood
Hacker
Daft analogy, so much so that from 2022 all cars sold in the EU will have to be fitted with speed limiters to stop us breaking the limit.I think you've misunderstood. Of course rules do and should evolve but transgression of a current rule that exists is transgression whether it is liked or not. You cannot, for example, say to someone "You were caught driving at 80mph but maybe in 10 years time that rule may have changed so on you go". Rules have to be enforced as they currently stand. And yes, rules are tested and stretched and slowly they adapt. That is all good but it is not the same as assessing a transgression of a rule in effect which has to be assessed within the present, not the future.
Rules adapt through continual observation and analysis. It is less common (but not impossible) for rules to change because people intentionally transgress. Continuing with the speed limit analogy, everyone intentionally breaks the speed limits but they haven't changed, for example.
One of my golf club reviews its rules every year and, each year the dress code survey is performed and slowly, very slowly, we are moving towards allowing trainers and jeans in the clubhouse. This is the right way to do it in my opinion. It is not right for me to turn up in trainers and jeans every day and kick off about a stupid rule. It is by the club working within itself and working with the principals of its members that we always move forward.
Full disclosure: I don't own any jeans because I'm a snob.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I think you've misunderstood. Of course rules do and should evolve but transgression of a current rule that exists is transgression whether it is liked or not. You cannot, for example, say to someone "You were caught driving at 80mph but maybe in 10 years time that rule may have changed so on you go". Rules have to be enforced as they currently stand. And yes, rules are tested and stretched and slowly they adapt. That is all good but it is not the same as assessing a transgression of a rule in effect which has to be assessed within the present, not the future.
Rules adapt through continual observation and analysis. It is less common (but not impossible) for rules to change because people intentionally transgress. Continuing with the speed limit analogy, everyone intentionally breaks the speed limits but they haven't changed, for example.
One of my golf club reviews its rules every year and, each year the dress code survey is performed and slowly, very slowly, we are moving towards allowing trainers and jeans in the clubhouse. This is the right way to do it in my opinion. It is not right for me to turn up in trainers and jeans every day and kick off about a stupid rule. It is by the club working within itself and working with the principals of its members that we always move forward.
Full disclosure: I don't own any jeans because I'm a snob.
Is it not far more important how any transgression is handled and that the handling should be proportional and relevant to the rule break
So they could cast suspicious eyes and whatever else that leads to… or they could accept that it’s a breach of a golf club dress code, and handle it appropriately
Foxholer
Blackballed
Absolutely not!
Jimaroid
Journeyman Pro
Oh look, someone else confusing present enforcement with a future policy.
robinthehood
Hacker
im not confusing anythng, i find it funny the lengths some will go to defend socks
oof.
Foxholer
Blackballed
The I'd question your ability to read and comprehend!
You seem to have ignored the words 'But complaining about being 'pulled' for not complying with clearly displayed standards is almost....'!
FWIW. My (privately owned; run as a business) club does not impose any dress standards - neither course, nor clubhouse. An excellent attitude imo. I haven't noticed anything (apart from denim in the clubhouse) that would breach the standards of a couple of rather stuffier adjoining clubs.
Jimaroid
Journeyman Pro
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at but tentatively, yes, how transgression is handled is highly important. In the case of the original article in the OP I would side with a view that the transgression was handled badly, and perhaps go further and think that's a worse reflection on the club in question than the rule itself. I don't believe in humiliating people when a quiet word would have done just fine.
MegaSteve
Tour Winner
im not confusing anythng, i find it funny the lengths some will go to defend socks
oof.
Yep, equally as hilarious as those that feel whinging, on a forum, will bring about change...
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
If people didn't feel they couldn't whinge, it would likely stop them trying to do something positive to change things. Imagine if the world was full of people happy to settle for the status quo, with no questioning or change? We'd be in the dark ages...
Luckily, there is a forum for change, and if that all starts with a little whinge on a social media platform, which is golf specific, then I'm all for it.
I'm for the future, not the past. Embrace the change, and don't live in the past, you might find you like it... ;-)
Marshy77
Journeyman Pro
What about if it's all over social media? It won't change the rule but it may make clubs sit up and listen.
