Failure to hole out, stroke play, penalty

[fullongolf]

Hi,

During a stroke competition, a member of our group took 3 putts to get to the edge of the hole. He picked the ball up without holing out and walked off the green.

He said his score was the same it would have been had he putted out.

I told him that he had to putt out or he would be dq'd. He then returned his ball to the edge of the hole and putted out. He again said that his score was the same as if he had putted out.

I believed that a penalty should apply but I wasn't sure what it should be. We finally agreed on a one stroke penalty.

Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

Below is an extract of what I believe are the applicable rules:

3.3 c Failure to Hole Out

A player must hole out at each hole in a round. If the player fails to hole out at any hole:

• The player must correct that mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning the scorecard.
• If the mistake is not corrected in that time, the player is disqualified.

9.4 Ball Lifted or Moved by Player

b Penalty for Lifting or Deliberately Touching Ball or Causing It to Move

If the player lifts or deliberately touches his or her ball at rest or causes it to move, the player gets one penalty stroke.

 

[Colin L]

Spot on for regular (medal) play. He would have been disqualified under 3.3c for not holing out had you not persuaded him to correct his mistake in good time. He gets a penalty stroke for moving his ball under 9.4b.

 

[Foxholer]

Seems correct to me - unless it was a Stableford competition.
I presume that he had also taken sufficient strokes that, were it a Stableford competition, he would have scored zero points even if he had putted out correctly.
If it was a Stableford competition, Rule 21 applies - and players are actually encouraged to pick up/not hole out if they cannot score.

 

[fullongolf]

It was a Stroke comp, monthly medal.

Not an issue in stableford if the player can't score.

 

[Jamesbrown]

What was his score for the hole without the penalty?

For handicap purposes he can’t score worse than net double bogey so he would be right in the fact his score would be the same if it was a lot of strokes.

If he’s not playing well or in no contention to win in his mind he could of reverted to stableford and played only for handicap.

I do this regardless if a medal which can be mind blowing for some when you pick up and NR.

 

[backwoodsman]

What was his score for the hole without the penalty?

For handicap purposes he can’t score worse than net double bogey so he would be right in the fact his score would be the same if it was a lot of strokes.

If he’s not playing well or in no contention to win in his mind he could of reverted to stableford and played only for handicap.

I do this regardless if a medal which can be mind blowing for some when you pick up and NR.

But that wasnt the issue though, was it? OP wanted to know if the player would be DQ for picking up & not replacing - yes. And was there a penalty if he replaced ball & continued - yes. Whether the player was bothered about being DQ, or whether he fancied just playing on for handicap purposes is a different matter.

And I've never understood the concept of not holing out, but picking up & continuing for h/c purposes. A big score or a NR for a hole have the same effect on the h/c calculation. So is picking up not just a vanity thing - so that you don't have to write an ugly big number on your card, and that others can't see it? (Ok, might be different if you're holding up the field, but that's not often the case).

 

[fullongolf]

It's not a question about handicaps, it's about playing the comp of the day, in this case it was stroke i.e. in stroke it's about how many shots you have on each hole.

The rules state that you must hole out before you go to the next hole. Pretty straight forward.

 

[DickInShorts]

Pal of mine told me - gleefully - that he’d scored 19 (yes - nineteen) on the first hole of the medal!

I asked him why he hadn’t stopped playing the hole after x number of shots - his reply “but it was a medal”. I then had to explain that he was unlikely to win that day and should have picked up once he was unable to score Stableford points for his handicap ( this was pre WHS).

DQ would probably have been better than advertising his score

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Am I missing something here?

Anytime i pick up in a medal I am DQ rather than just entering a NR for the hole....

That's how I am reading this.

Yes or no answer please.

 

[Jamesbrown]

But that wasnt the issue though, was it? OP wanted to know if the player would be DQ for picking up & not replacing - yes. And was there a penalty if he replaced ball & continued - yes. Whether the player was bothered about being DQ, or whether he fancied just playing on for handicap purposes is a different matter.

And I've never understood the concept of not holing out, but picking up & continuing for h/c purposes. A big score or a NR for a hole have the same effect on the h/c calculation. So is picking up not just a vanity thing - so that you don't have to write an ugly big number on your card, and that others can't see it? (Ok, might be different if you're holding up the field, but that's not often the case).

When his playing partner had mentioned that his score was the same regardless of putting out or not i needed to know what his playing mindset is. I need context. Seems unusual to have a discussion on DQ when someone has clearly picked up.

It’s not a vanity thing no, it’s not torturing your playing partners and upsetting the flow.

If I turn up for a medal, it’s stableford for me. When I first found out I could get a cut even though I picked up or carded a big number it was a revelation.
A revelation that a lot still don’t seem to know about.

 

[Jamesbrown]

Am I missing something here?

Anytime i pick up in a medal I am DQ rather than just entering a NR for the hole....

That's how I am reading this.

Yes or no answer please.

With NR you don’t record the score and disqualify yourself.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

With NR you don’t record the score and disqualify yourself.

But it shows as NR on comp results not DQ.

 

[Backache]

Am I missing something here?

Anytime i pick up in a medal I am DQ rather than just entering a NR for the hole....

That's how I am reading this.

Yes or no answer please.

You are disqualified, that does not preclude entering an NR and playing on.

 

[Jamesbrown]

But it shows as NR on comp results not DQ.

Same thing in reality. You have not qualified to be in the standings for the competition.

 

[Foxholer]

Am I missing something here?

Anytime i pick up in a medal I am DQ rather than just entering a NR for the hole....

That's how I am reading this.

Yes or no answer please.

Yes.

But there are 2 metrics involved, and you are only DQ-ed from one of them - the Medal comp.
Handicap is a 'Stableford metric/measurement' runnng alongside any qualifying comp (be it Medal or Stbleford), so the NR simply means zero points scored for that hole.

For a bit of history, that was the entire reason Dr Frank Stableford invented the system. The first few holes at Wallesey were/are seriously difficult (well, maybe not the magnificent 1st), especially in any sort of 'breeze' and the entire round could be shot to pieces by the 5th. To make the rest of the round meaningful, he devised a system to treat each hole as separate challenge, with the sum of each being the overall value of the round.

 

[jim8flog]

Pal of mine told me - gleefully - that he’d scored 19 (yes - nineteen) on the first hole of the medal!

I asked him why he hadn’t stopped playing the hole after x number of shots - his reply “but it was a medal”. I then had to explain that he was unlikely to win that day and should have picked up once he was unable to score Stableford points for his handicap ( this was pre WHS).

DQ would probably have been better than advertising his score

I have seen some clubs have the rule that you cannot win a prize in a 2s comp unless every hole is completed!!

 

[jim8flog]

But it shows as NR on comp results not DQ.

One of the people who does the cards in our seniors comps always records it as a DQ

 

[fullongolf]

I'm a bit bemused by some of the responses here about how scores are (or are not) recorded.

If I'm playing stableford I record the shots taken to complete the hole (unless I am clearly exceeded my handicap). If I'm not sure if I get a shot on the hole I'll putt out just in case.

But in stroke play, I record the exact number of shots taken, whether it's a 4 or 19. That's the comp of the day.

On the pro tours, they play stroke week in, week out. Count every shot, no pick ups.

In this case, my playing partner replaced his ball and putted out. If he had not done so and teed off at the next hole, he would have been dq'd.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

One of the people who does the cards in our seniors comps always records it as a DQ

Last comp I played in would have had a lot of DQ's then, 40 NR's and 6 DQ for the usual HI and CH errors.

 

[Neilds]

I'm a bit bemused by some of the responses here about how scores are (or are not) recorded.

If I'm playing stableford I record the shots taken to complete the hole (unless I am clearly exceeded my handicap). If I'm not sure if I get a shot on the hole I'll putt out just in case.

But in stroke play, I record the exact number of shots taken, whether it's a 4 or 19. That's the comp of the day.

On the pro tours, they play stroke week in, week out. Count every shot, no pick ups.

In this case, my playing partner replaced his ball and putted out. If he had not done so and teed off at the next hole, he would have been dq'd.

You are correct in your response, what I think is confusing you is people mentioning picking up in Medal (Medal and SF are both stroke play but let's not get hung up on this!)
In SF, you are correct that it is best practise to pick up if you can no longer score. In a Medal, you can also pick up (N/R) on a hole if you are getting a nightmare score. This will exclude (DQ/NR depending on terminology) from the competition, but you should continue to play the rest of the round and record your scores as you would if you hadn't N/R'd a hole. When you submit your card, it will be discounted from the competition but will still be used for handicap purposes and will be used to assess your best 8 from 20 scores. The hole (s) that you recorded N/R will be recorded as a nett double bogey and your score will be adjusted accordingly. On the EG app it will be recorded something like *(90) which means no score was returned but overall, after adjustment it was counted as a round of 90.
Hope this clarifies the issue.