Thoughts?

[clubchamp98]

Would you take your grand daughter to the match if you found out Adam Johnson was a season ticket holder and likely to be there?

I think if he turned up there he would be in for a tough afternoon .
Yes as I would be with her all the time. Except toilets!
But I would not be with her all the time at the golf club if she plays with other juniors.

I can’t see what the status of other members is being relevant to the op asking .
If a KNOWN sex offender tried to join a club.
He probably is treated differently to others being high profile.
But he should have known that and behaved himself.

 

[HamiltonGuy]

I think if he turned up there he would be in for a tough afternoon .
Yes as I would be with her all the time. Except toilets!
But I would not be with her all the time at the golf club if she plays with other juniors.

I can’t see what the status of other members is being relevant to the op asking .
If a KNOWN sex offender tried to join a club.
He probably is treated differently to others being high profile.
But he should have known that and behaved himself.

But he didn’t behave himself so here we are now. Grown men on a forum judging him as we have never committed a crime. Guy did a terrible thing, I don’t see anyone trying to argue it isn’t however he’s done his time and in the UK prisons aren’t just punishment you want to rehabilitate so let’s let him get on with his life and let the probation service do their job rather than have him locked in his house as I don’t see what benefit to society that would be

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But he didn’t behave himself so here we are now. Grown men on a forum judging him as we have never committed a crime. Guy did a terrible thing, I don’t see anyone trying to argue it isn’t however he’s done his time and in the UK prisons aren’t just punishment you want to rehabilitate so let’s let him get on with his life and let the probation service do their job rather than have him locked in his house as I don’t see what benefit to society that would be

It’s all about him though and his rights, just because he’s done time in prison it doesn’t mean he’s rehabilitated.
People have an opinion and you question our backgrounds.
Once again to try prove a point people bring public events in comparison to a PRIVATE Club.
I don’t care about Johnson whether he lives in luxury or suffers everyday for the rest of his life, what I do care about is that clubs have their priorities right and ensure that their Juniors can come to their club and feel safe and secure, it’s irrelevant whether he’s famous or anonymous, the clubs should have the same safe environment for Juniors. (I’d suggest Wynyard will have these in place)

 

[Marshy77]

It’s all about him though and his rights, just because he’s done time in prison it doesn’t mean he’s rehabilitated.
People have an opinion and you question our backgrounds.
Once again to try prove a point people bring public events in comparison to a PRIVATE Club.
I don’t care about Johnson whether he lives in luxury or suffers everyday for the rest of his life, what I do care about is that clubs have their priorities right and ensure that their Juniors can come to their club and feel safe and secure, it’s irrelevant whether he’s famous or anonymous, the clubs should have the same safe environment for Juniors. (I’d suggest Wynyard will have these in place)

I almost certain that they will have sorted this.
You would have thought that the club have restrictions put on him to when he can play, who he can play with and maybe that he always has to play in a 2 or more ball to ensure he's not put in a position that may cause any problems.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If Johnson is willing to expose himself to the vilification he is likely to receive from some members - and the clubs child protection policy is in place and in action - then I am one for forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not the same as excusing him of his crime - it is accepting that it may be appropriate to give space for individuals to repent and try and change their lives - we do not know what good such an individual might provide to society if they do not get the chance. Of course those affected by his crime also have to rebuild their lives - but not all who are the victims of a crime hold long term resentments against the perpetrator. Some are willing to work for the better.

In this I always reflect upon the words of Gordon Wilson - whose daughter died holding his hand under the rubble of the Enniskillen bombing

But I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life. She was a great wee lassie. She loved her profession. She was a pet. She's dead. She's in heaven and we shall meet again. I will pray for these men tonight and every night."

He forgave the bombers, and prayed that they might come to understand the evilness of their act and so change their ways in some way to the benefit of NI society. Who knows what impact his words might have had on some who were previously inclined to perpetrate such evil acts...but who changed their minds on hearing his words.

 

[Slab]

I’m surprised he has time to play golf (certainly during the 6 year period since sentencing) After being released early shouldn’t he be spending most of his spare time doing community service, attending further rehabilitation classes or giving back to society in some other form until the 6 year period is complete and then his spare time becomes his again to use as he wishes

I guess this is off topic

 

[Marshy77]

I’m surprised he has time to play golf (certainly during the 6 year period since sentencing) After being released early shouldn’t he be spending most of his spare time doing community service, attending further rehabilitation classes or giving back to society in some other form until the 6 year period is complete and then his spare time becomes his again to use as he wishes

I guess this is off topic

Is that what every person convicted of a crime does?

 

[Slab]

Is that what every person convicted of a crime does?

Dunno to be honest but it would seem sensible that anyone released early hasn't completed their sentence yet, so still has work to do

 

[Swango1980]

Dunno to be honest but it would seem sensible that anyone released early hasn't completed their sentence yet, so still has work to do

I suppose, even if they did do community service work, they'd still have some time left for themselves to play golf, computer games, hiking or whatever floats their boat.

Not sure if Adam Johnson has got himself a day job yet, so he may have a lot of time for both.

I was thinking, to serve the community could he go into schools and talk to young girls about the dangers of grooming? Contradiction is, I doubt he'd be let anywhere near a school. Perhaps he'd better serve the community by picking up litter in the grounds of a retirement home.

 

[Hobbit]

His sentence is never "spent," because it was more than 5 years. So those that are saying he's done his time, you're wrong. And as he was released 3 years into a 6 year sentence, he's out under licence = still not "spent."

I assume his probation officer is aware he's joined a golf club, and that the probation officer has carried out an assessment of Johnson's "regulated activity." That assessment should have included full consultation with the club. There will be an "Automatic Order" (Safe Guarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006) in place which bars him from activities which could bring him into contact with those being identified as at risk, i.e. underage girls.

Here's the scenario that the probation officer should have considered; he's out playing as a single. He catches up a group which is identified as a "vulnerable group," including 15 year old girls. It can be as simple as that group is waiting on a tee for the group in front to get out of range. He completes the hole he's playing and walks to the next tee where the group are waiting.

In theory, Johnson's "Automatic Order" bars him from even being in the above situation, and could see him back in court for breaching the "Order." His licence could be revoked and he could be sentenced to up to a further 5 years. The reality, thinking of the recent instance of the Police being called when Rolf Harris was seen outside school gates watching children, is Johnson would be interviewed and released with nothing more than a "don't put yourself in that situation again."

Is the probation officer aware Johnson has joined a golf club? He should have been advised by Johnson. Did the probation officer consult with the golf club, and did the club advise the probation officer of the above scenario? Did the club limit Johnson's access, i.e. he has to play in a group of adults at all times?

If I was the JLO at that club I'd resign the position with immediate effect. If I was a JLO in the immediate area I'd refuse a fixture at that club.

 

[Swango1980]

His sentence is never "spent," because it was more than 5 years. So those that are saying he's done his time, you're wrong. And as he was released 3 years into a 6 year sentence, he's out under licence = still not "spent."

I assume his probation officer is aware he's joined a golf club, and that the probation officer has carried out an assessment of Johnson's "regulated activity." That assessment should have included full consultation with the club. There will be an "Automatic Order" (Safe Guarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006) in place which bars him from activities which could bring him into contact with those being identified as at risk, i.e. underage girls.

Here's the scenario that the probation officer should have considered; he's out playing as a single. He catches up a group which is identified as a "vulnerable group," including 15 year old girls. It can be as simple as that group is waiting on a tee for the group in front to get out of range. He completes the hole he's playing and walks to the next tee where the group are waiting.

In theory, Johnson's "Automatic Order" bars him from even being in the above situation, and could see him back in court for breaching the "Order." His licence could be revoked and he could be sentenced to up to a further 5 years. The reality, thinking of the recent instance of the Police being called when Rolf Harris was seen outside school gates watching children, is Johnson would be interviewed and released with nothing more than a "don't put yourself in that situation again."

Is the probation officer aware Johnson has joined a golf club? He should have been advised by Johnson. Did the probation officer consult with the golf club, and did the club advise the probation officer of the above scenario? Did the club limit Johnson's access, i.e. he has to play in a group of adults at all times?

If I was the JLO at that club I'd resign the position with immediate effect. If I was a JLO in the immediate area I'd refuse a fixture at that club.

 

[Swango1980]

Good articulated response, and interesting detail on what processes are required once he is released.

Just out of interest, if it really is as serious is being in the presence of a 15 year old girl could land him in hot water, then forgetting golf, how can this be avoided in all walks of life. Does he and his probation officer have to think of ways in which he will never ever be in the vicinity, or maybe even see, a girl of 15 or younger again? So, he would never be able to go to any sort of crowded event, have to do his shopping online, etc. Or, at the very least, always be with another adult who can check on him, follow him to the toilet, etc. But then, how responsible is that adult in checking up on him?

I think, reading the first part of your answer, I get the impression that surely all these checks were then done by the club and probation officer, and they believed everything was OK. I'm sure they'd have done a decent job, as getting it wrong in such a high profile case would not work well for them.

So, if everyone has done their job, I assume you would simply resign out of a personal choice rather than disagreeing with the process? And, if you were junior organiser at another club, would you refuse the fixture at that club, even if parents, kids and club officials at your club wanted it to go ahead?

 

[Hobbit]

Good articulated response, and interesting detail on what processes are required once he is released.

Just out of interest, if it really is as serious is being in the presence of a 15 year old girl could land him in hot water, then forgetting golf, how can this be avoided in all walks of life. Does he and his probation officer have to think of ways in which he will never ever be in the vicinity, or maybe even see, a girl of 15 or younger again? So, he would never be able to go to any sort of crowded event, have to do his shopping online, etc. Or, at the very least, always be with another adult who can check on him, follow him to the toilet, etc. But then, how responsible is that adult in checking up on him?

I think, reading the first part of your answer, I get the impression that surely all these checks were then done by the club and probation officer, and they believed everything was OK. I'm sure they'd have done a decent job, as getting it wrong in such a high profile case would not work well for them.

So, if everyone has done their job, I assume you would simply resign out of a personal choice rather than disagreeing with the process? And, if you were junior organiser at another club, would you refuse the fixture at that club, even if parents, kids and club officials at your club wanted it to go ahead?

It would be an assumption that the club and the probation officer have spoken, and that a comprehensive assessment has been done. I don't know either way.

My comments about the JLO position is quite simple. The JLO is one of the club officials responsible for the welfare of the juniors, and I would hope that he/she was consulted about the membership application. Knowing that juniors often go out on their own, and Wynyard has a number of areas well out of sight, I'd be uncomfortable with them being out on the course, out of sight and potentially at risk. Imagine if something went wrong and you had to contact the parents, and knowing you were consulted about Johnson's application. Similarly, as the JLO of a visiting club knowing you were potentially putting children in harm's way, and not even knowing if the club and the probation officer had carried out due diligence.

To be honest, knowing the possible scenarios, and Section 24 of the Safe Guarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, I'm surprised he has been accepted as a member. Is the club aware of the section in the Act?

 

[Swango1980]

It would be an assumption that the club and the probation officer have spoken, and that a comprehensive assessment has been done. I don't know either way.

My comments about the JLO position is quite simple. The JLO is one of the club officials responsible for the welfare of the juniors, and I would hope that he/she was consulted about the membership application. Knowing that juniors often go out on their own, and Wynyard has a number of areas well out of sight, I'd be uncomfortable with them being out on the course, out of sight and potentially at risk. Imagine if something went wrong and you had to contact the parents, and knowing you were consulted about Johnson's application. Similarly, as the JLO of a visiting club knowing you were potentially putting children in harm's way, and not even knowing if the club and the probation officer had carried out due diligence.

To be honest, knowing the possible scenarios, and Section 24 of the Safe Guarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, I'm surprised he has been accepted as a member. Is the club aware of the section in the Act?

I get your point. But, as JLO at a club, if you were to visit any club, how can you be sure they have any policy at all, or have implemented it properly.

If you had to contact a parent to say something awful had happened with a strange middle aged man at an away course, would you feel in a way let off the hook as you simply had no way of knowing who that individual was? Or, do you have a duty as JLO to safeguard the juniors when playing away, regardless of the club policies you are playing?

I can see the position of JLO can be a very tricky one, and important one. Don't envy them.

 

[Marshy77]

Dunno to be honest but it would seem sensible that anyone released early hasn't completed their sentence yet, so still has work to do

Maybe he is, you'd like to think that procedures have been put in place for him to serve out his sentence.

I don't know, haven't a clue how the system works.

 

[Hobbit]

I get your point. But, as JLO at a club, if you were to visit any club, how can you be sure they have any policy at all, or have implemented it properly.

If you had to contact a parent to say something awful had happened with a strange middle aged man at an away course, would you feel in a way let off the hook as you simply had no way of knowing who that individual was? Or, do you have a duty as JLO to safeguard the juniors when playing away, regardless of the club policies you are playing?

I can see the position of JLO can be a very tricky one, and important one. Don't envy them.

As a JLO you rely on all clubs following the established guidelines/procedures from the golfing authorities. There's no way you would go to a club and ask to see their procedures. Add to that things like enhanced CRB, or is it DBS now, that JLO's are supposed to have. Its nearly 20 years since I was JLO. PaulDJ is the best person to answer I guess.

 

[Swango1980]

It would be an assumption that the club and the probation officer have spoken, and that a comprehensive assessment has been done. I don't know either way.

My comments about the JLO position is quite simple. The JLO is one of the club officials responsible for the welfare of the juniors, and I would hope that he/she was consulted about the membership application. Knowing that juniors often go out on their own, and Wynyard has a number of areas well out of sight, I'd be uncomfortable with them being out on the course, out of sight and potentially at risk. Imagine if something went wrong and you had to contact the parents, and knowing you were consulted about Johnson's application. Similarly, as the JLO of a visiting club knowing you were potentially putting children in harm's way, and not even knowing if the club and the probation officer had carried out due diligence.

To be honest, knowing the possible scenarios, and Section 24 of the Safe Guarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, I'm surprised he has been accepted as a member. Is the club aware of the section in the Act?

I suppose, playing devils advocate, if the JLO thinks that there are certain scenarios the Adam Johnson could be a risk, then I would be concerned as a parent. Not because of Adam Johnson necessarily. But, if the JLO concedes this, then they must also concede there are scenarios in which they cannot protect their kids from an unknown sexual predator, which I'd have thought an even bigger risk simply based on probability. Surely the policies in place protecting their kids from an unknown predator must hold up to a national celebrity on the register?

 

[Hobbit]

I suppose, playing devils advocate, if the JLO thinks that there are certain scenarios the Adam Johnson could be a risk, then I would be concerned as a parent. Not because of Adam Johnson necessarily. But, if the JLO concedes this, then they must also concede there are scenarios in which they cannot protect their kids from an unknown sexual predator, which I'd have thought an even bigger risk simply based on probability. Surely the policies in place protecting their kids from an unknown predator must hold up to a national celebrity on the register?

That's now getting into the realms of never letting your children out the front door. We can't be everywhere, and even if we were, there has been cases of those with jobs that include caring for children being abusers.

 

[Orikoru]

Wait, what the hell has Jennifer Lopez got to do with it?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

As a JLO you rely on all clubs following the established guidelines/procedures from the golfing authorities. There's no way you would go to a club and ask to see their procedures. Add to that things like enhanced CRB, or is it DBS now, that JLO's are supposed to have. Its nearly 20 years since I was JLO. PaulDJ is the best person to answer I guess.

DBS mate, plus attendance on Safeguarding Course. The good thing these days is that the whole Club management/hierarchy has to buy in to it as well, Club Welfare Officers have to be trained, any other personnel who regularly help me out have to be DBS cleared and course trained, Policies, posters etc have to be displayed around the Club.

We’ve spent months putting everything in place to get SafeGolf recognition: apparently we only the 2nd Club in the North East to achieve it.
England Golf would like to thank your club for working through the SafeGolf process which demonstrates your commitment to the standards set by the SafeGolf partnership in safeguarding the welfare of children and young people, as well as adults at risk in the sport of golf.

The notice above is displayed and used to (hopefully) ensure parents bringing their kids to join us are content we are doing everything we should to take care of their kids whilst they’re in our care.