Scottish v English football

[FairwayDodger]

Not you then. OK.


Even with champions league football the old rangers were not even close to making a profit. And without that level of player the fans will drift away to 80's levels again making the situation worse. The real problem started when Murray came in with someone else's money (namely the banks) it drove Scottish football to silly levels before that they weren't doing too badly in europe. Whether that would have continued is anyone's guess.

While they undoubtedly overspent chasing the dream for years, in more recent times under mcleish and smith the debt was being tackled and reducing. So, yes, I'd say with a more realistic approach and the absence of a debt mountain that they should be able to make a profit.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sorry, I thought it was pretty obvious.
That is where the best players in the world and all the TV money will be going within a decade.

Living on cloud cuckoo land if you actually believe that

 

[FairwayDodger]

Living on cloud cuckoo land if you actually believe that

For once, I think DFT might actually be onto something. You're a bit naive to dismiss it so emphatically.

Where do you find all the TV money and best players in golf?

 

[Foxholer]

Even with champions league football the old rangers were not even close to making a profit. And without that level of player the fans will drift away to 80's levels again making the situation worse. The real problem started when Murray came in with someone else's money (namely the banks) it drove Scottish football to silly levels before that they weren't doing too badly in europe. Whether that would have continued is anyone's guess.

Here's an interesting, if relatively old, analysis of the problem - and does highlight Murray's spending boast as one of the fundamental triggers. Green has now gone of course!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsm...the-financial-meltdown-of-glasgow-rangers-fc/

Overspending chasing unrealistic/unfulfilled goals have been the downfall of many clubs (Leeds being the glaring one in England). However, Scottish Football needs Rangers to be competitive again imo. And the sooner, the better! English football is big enough to allow wayward clubs to shrink, as others simply replace them. And the Broadcasting revenue is on a completely different scale!

Btw. While I agree with DfT that there'll be an increase in Football in US, I don't believe it will ever take over from Europe as THE main place for Football. Part of that view is because of the failure/inability of the US crowd culture to understand a Draw/Tie!!

 

[chris661]

Here's an interesting, if relatively old, analysis of the problem - and does highlight Murray's spending boast as one of the fundamental triggers. Green has now gone of course!

Overspending chasing unrealistic/unfulfilled goals have been the downfall of many clubs (Leeds being the glaring one in England). However, Scottish Football needs Rangers to be competitive again imo. And the sooner, the better! English football is big enough to allow wayward clubs to shrink, as others simply replace them. And the Broadcasting revenue is on a completely different scale!

I don't believe rangers will be in a position to challenge when/if they make it to the top division for a very long time.

Broadcasting revenue is IMO the crux of the problem.

 

[chris661]

While they undoubtedly overspent chasing the dream for years, in more recent times under mcleish and smith the debt was being tackled and reducing. So, yes, I'd say with a more realistic approach and the absence of a debt mountain that they should be able to make a profit.

Problem is the majority of fans don't care about profit or anything else except winning leagues. That isn't going to happen without an unrealistic approach. The board are still telling fans that the last 16 and the occasional semi of the champions league is a realistic aim.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

For once, I think DFT might actually be onto something. You're a bit naive to dismiss it so emphatically.

Where do you find all the TV money and best players in golf?

Golf has been popular in the US for decades upon decades - there is no comparison to football

The US public will always have football below a number of sports over there , over here and on Europe Football is the number one sport - the appeal is Europe/South America is massive - the big club comps are in Europe and SA.

The fans in the Uk and in Europe pay the money to see their teams play - that's why Sky will continue to pump money into the game in the UK and in the CL.

Whilst the MLS is a decent league it is a final resting place for the pros - unless the top pros start going their during their prime then the money will continue to pour into European
Football

 

[FairwayDodger]

Golf has been popular in the US for decades upon decades - there is no comparison to football

The US public will always have football below a number of sports over there , over here and on Europe Football is the number one sport - the appeal is Europe/South America is massive - the big club comps are in Europe and SA.

The fans in the Uk and in Europe pay the money to see their teams play - that's why Sky will continue to pump money into the game in the UK and in the CL.

Whilst the MLS is a decent league it is a final resting place for the pros - unless the top pros start going their during their prime then the money will continue to pour into European
Football

I think the point is that English football should not get complacent, things can change. The us is a sleeping giant in football terms (or newly born giant, maybe, but you get the point). The Spanish league already attracts the very best players to its top two clubs, perhaps that league could grow, with other clubs gaining traction as the Spanish economy recovers..... Etc etc... And any other number of unknown events could happen...

If (big if) the TV money wasn't there anymore, there would need to be a huge adjustment in English football. Having seen Armageddon in Scottish football I don't think you should bury your head in the sand.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Problem is the majority of fans don't care about profit or anything else except winning leagues. That isn't going to happen without an unrealistic approach. The board are still telling fans that the last 16 and the occasional semi of the champions league is a realistic aim.

I think (hope) that proportion of fans is changing. While they often make statements we would like to believe, the board talk nonsense on an almost daily basis. Most have very little faith in what they say.

It's not impossible for rangers to eventually become competitive domestically without breaking the bank. Question is can the club take that route while keeping the fans happy and patient.....? Unlikely, as you say.

At least Celtic appear to be going backwards but I can't help thinking that, with their cash reserves, the purse strings would be loosened if it looked like there was a serious domestic challenge.

 

[Foxholer]

Problem is the majority of fans don't care about profit or anything else except winning leagues.

Fans? I speak for no one except me thanks.

H'mm!

Btw. I agree completely. Same happens in England/EPL - re Liverpool for example! It's an area where Wenger really IS a great Manager!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

For once, I think DFT might actually be onto something. You're a bit naive to dismiss it so emphatically.

Where do you find all the TV money and best players in golf?

Huh, what do you mean... for once?
I am seldom wrong, although sometimes it may take 20 odd years to mature!

Slightly offended:smirk:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The other thing that has changed is the young kids of today support players and not teams.

My football mad 8 year old grandson is a good example, whatever team Messi is playing for will be the team he supports. [at the mo]

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Golf has been popular in the US for decades upon decades - there is no comparison to football

The US public will always have football below a number of sports over there , over here and on Europe Football is the number one sport - the appeal is Europe/South America is massive - the big club comps are in Europe and SA.

The fans in the Uk and in Europe pay the money to see their teams play - that's why Sky will continue to pump money into the game in the UK and in the CL.

Whilst the MLS is a decent league it is a final resting place for the pros - unless the top pros start going their during their prime then the money will continue to pour into European
Football

That is such a 'yesterdays man' comment.
Of course the best, in their prime' football players will end up in the USA because money talks.

100,900. fans in America for a friendly.
Look at Wicki. for English football crowd records and I think there is only one club [Southampton] with record crowds since the 1980's.
Most club records were set in the 1920/30's.
Not any of those records come within 20,000 of the recent USA game.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That is such a 'yesterdays man' comment.
Of course the best, in their prime' football players will end up in the USA because money talks.

100,900. fans in America for a friendly.
Look at Wicki. for English football crowd records and I think there is only one club [Southampton] with record crowds since the 1980's.
Most club records were set in the 1920/30's.
Not any of those records come within 20,000 of the recent USA game.

Since the '80s the stadia in England have become all seaters so record attendances are unlikely. Record gate receipts are, however, a different matter.

Also attendees at sports events in the States are notoriously fickle tending to be temporarily attracted to "the new big thing"
making it difficult to compare with established sports in established markets.

Mind you it would be great to see America finally embrace football but for this to happen there will have to be a marked improvement in the quality of the home grown players rather than those imported from elsewhere.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Mind you it would be great to see America finally embrace football but for this to happen there will have to be a marked improvement in the quality of the home grown players rather than those imported from elsewhere.

Well the emergence of the 'Soccer Moms' as a targeted political grouping in the USA must give us a bit of a clue.
That generation are just about to bloom. Kids that is not the Moms:smirk:

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Well the emergence of the 'Soccer Moms' as a targeted political grouping in the USA must give us a bit of a clue.
That generation are just about to bloom. Kids that is not the Moms:smirk:

The trouble for over twenty years now has been keeping the boys involved in the game beyond the age of around 14.

With the girls it has been more successful, hence the performance of the US womens' team but the boys that remain involved in team sports still tend to gravitate towards "gridiron", baseball or basketball.

There are, however, signs that "soccer's" fotunes may change.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That is such a 'yesterdays man' comment.
Of course the best, in their prime' football players will end up in the USA because money talks.

100,900. fans in America for a friendly.
Look at Wicki. for English football crowd records and I think there is only one club [Southampton] with record crowds since the 1980's.
Most club records were set in the 1920/30's.
Not any of those records come within 20,000 of the recent USA game.

I think that really does show how little you really know

The best players will not end up in the US - football will always be behind - baseball, basketball, American Football , Ice Hockey - the sports ingrained into American culture. They are already playing high wages but only for a certain amount of people because American sports use the wage cap within their sports.

Football is not mainstream in the USA - people have been trying to increase the appeal for nearly 40 years now and it hasn't worked.

As for the crowds - their stadiums are bigger and the attendances at UK grounds has reduced dramatically over the years due to safety reasons - but I would expect most would know that

 

[Doon frae Troon]

As for the crowds - their stadiums are bigger and the attendances at UK grounds has reduced dramatically over the years due to safety reasons - but I would expect most would know that

So why has the UK not followed the USA example and built bigger stadiums to accommodate the lost thousands.
The new grounds built at places like Southampton, Wigan, Southend, Burnley etc are generally in the 25-30,000 capacity.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So why has the UK not followed the USA example and built bigger stadiums to accommodate the lost thousands.
The new grounds built at places like Southampton, Wigan, Southend, Burnley etc are generally in the 25-30,000 capacity.

Because they are very expensive to build and in the UK they don't get help from the City or local government to build to stadium

And 20-30000 is about right for those teams

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Not according to these figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_record_home_attendances_of_English_football_clubs

Remember also that the population of England has exploded since most of these attendances were recorded.