Scorecard responsibility

[wjemather]

Cards are no longer accepted for individual player competitions at my club.
You can keep a card if you wish and there are two options for entering scores:
Sign in on the computer in the pro shop - keep a card - enter scores on computer in the clubhouse (this is the same method we’ve used since PSI was introduced years ago (the only difference being card is not required to be deposited in box.
Alternatively use the phone app to sign in ,record scores,and both player and Attester sign box on phone screen afterwards

How is certification of the scores (a requirement of the rules) checked when using the PSI?

 

[jim8flog]

Don't you think it would be if an electronic input of scores was the required method of returning your scores?

The club has to follow The Rules of Golf, as do we all, so they cannot unilaterally make this a rule.

If the R&A decide to change the rules to suit I would not have a problem with it.

 

[woofers]

Why are we discussing aphysical signature when the RoG don't require one.

Why should we need a signature?

Attester logs in to their account and approves score.
There is absolutely no need for a player to sign either.

Why have the unnecessary step of adding a squiggle? My signature is completely different every time I sign. It’s never caused a problem.

I know all that, if you had read the earlier posts (from #29) you’d know that the discussion was NOT about the requirement, but asking which App facilitates a physical attester signature because to my knowledge the EG App doesn’t (and therefore allows anyone so minded to send a request to approve a GP score electronically to anyone else regardless of whether that person witnessed the round or not).

Alternatively use the phone app to sign in ,record scores,and both player and Attester sign box on phone screen afterwards

So following along, I’m genuinely interested in which App you use that has the two signature boxes?
(I know and don’t care about the “is physical signature required” discussion, hope that’s clear now!)

 

[jim8flog]

I know all that, if you had read the earlier posts (from #29) you’d know that the discussion was NOT about the requirement, but asking which App facilitates a physical attester signature because to my knowledge the EG App doesn’t (and therefore allows anyone so minded to send a request to approve a GP score electronically to anyone else regardless of whether that person witnessed the round or not).

So following along, I’m genuinely interested in which App you use that has the two signature boxes?
(I know and don’t care about the “is physical signature required” discussion, hope that’s clear now!)

The first question to ask really (as this is about comps and not GP cards) is which ISV does you club use and therefore which App is relevant to you.

 

[rulefan]

The first question to ask really (as this is about comps and not GP cards) is which ISV does you club use and therefore which App is relevant to you.

HDID/V1

 

[Colin L]

The club has to follow The Rules of Golf, as do we all, so they cannot unilaterally make this a rule.

If the R&A decide to change the rules to suit I would not have a problem with it.

It already is the rule that if electronic recording is the required method of returning a score, you would be disqualified if you did not do that. See Clarification 3.3b(2)/1

There is a difference between requiring players to enter a score for a round into a computer (such as for handicapping purposes) and being required to enter hole scores using an electronic form of scorecard approved by the Committee (such as a mobile scoring application).The Committee may require players to use a scorecard other than a paper scorecard (such as an electronic form of scorecard), but the Committee has no authority to impose a penalty under Rule 3.3b(2) for failing to enter scores elsewhere.

Briefly, if the Committee states that you return scores electronically you can't be penalised for not entering scores on a physical card (elsewhere) but if the the Committee states that you return scores on a physical card you can't be penalised for not entering scores in a computer (elsewhere).

 

[Colin L]

I know all that, if you had read the earlier posts (from #29) you’d know that the discussion was NOT about the requirement, but asking which App facilitates a physical attester signature because to my knowledge the EG App doesn’t (and therefore allows anyone so minded to send a request to approve a GP score electronically to anyone else regardless of whether that person witnessed the round or not).

So following along, I’m genuinely interested in which App you use that has the two signature boxes?
(I know and don’t care about the “is physical signature required” discussion, hope that’s clear now!)

The software in use at my club (ClubV1 unless it has changed since I ceased to be involved in such matters) requires you to enter the name of the player who is certifying your score and also the name of the player whose score you certified (the latter allowing I suppose, for cross-checking).

 

[Swango1980]

The software in use at my club (ClubV1 unless it has changed since I ceased to be involved in such matters) requires you to enter the name of the player who is certifying your score and also the name of the player whose score you certified (the latter allowing I suppose, for cross-checking).

That's only useful though if you have a physical card to cross check scores.

The Club V1 software does ask for the player who marked your card, and the player who marked yours. But, it doesn't notify them about what score you put in. So there is certainly no way of the marker verifying what score the player puts in on Club V1

 

[rulefan]

That's only useful though if you have a physical card to cross check scores.

The Club V1 software does ask for the player who marked your card, and the player who marked yours. But, it doesn't notify them about what score you put in. So there is certainly no way of the marker verifying what score the player puts in on Club V1

To add to #85.
Enter by registering via either PSI
Return scores via either PSI
Put card in adjacent box

 

[wjemather]

The software in use at my club (ClubV1 unless it has changed since I ceased to be involved in such matters) requires you to enter the name of the player who is certifying your score and also the name of the player whose score you certified (the latter allowing I suppose, for cross-checking).

That's only useful though if you have a physical card to cross check scores.

The Club V1 software does ask for the player who marked your card, and the player who marked yours. But, it doesn't notify them about what score you put in. So there is certainly no way of the marker verifying what score the player puts in on Club V1

When the howdidido app electronic scorecard functionality is fully enabled on ClubV1, are players not required to enter both their own and the score of the player who they are marking for on the app; with the system then checking for discrepancies and notifying the players?

 

[Colin L]

That's only useful though if you have a physical card to cross check scores.

The Club V1 software does ask for the player who marked your card, and the player who marked yours. But, it doesn't notify them about what score you put in. So there is certainly no way of the marker verifying what score the player puts in on Club V1

There is indeed a way: if you aren't prepared to accept player integrity in the matter, require the marker to be present when the scores are entered so that he can observe what figures go in. Anyway, with a physical card there is no way of knowing that nothing has been done to the scores between the marker signing and the player returning his card, or that the player had actually taken two to get out of the trees when his marker wasn't looking and counted only one, or the bunker backstroke that shifted some sand with no penalty added ........

 

[Swango1980]

There is indeed a way: if you aren't prepared to accept player integrity in the matter, require the marker to be present when the scores are entered so that he can observe what figures go in. Anyway, with a physical card there is no way of knowing that nothing has been done to the scores between the marker signing and the player returning his card, or that the player had actually taken two to get out of the trees when his marker wasn't looking and counted only one, or the bunker backstroke that shifted some sand with no penalty added ........

I'm not sure what you are getting at? Firstly, I never mentioned player integrity. I've known many many golfers put in the wrong scores accidentally and this has had to be corrected, nothing about them being devious.

The point is, if you are happy to accept a player putting in their score onto the computer without any reason or evidence that this has been checked by a marker, and no need for a physical card to be submitted, then why do the Rules bother asking for a Marker at all?

 

[Swango1980]

When the howdidido app electronic scorecard functionality is fully enabled on ClubV1, are players not required to enter both their own and the score of the player who they are marking for on the app; with the system then checking for discrepancies and notifying the players?

Not at my club, but I couldn't be sure if that is just because that is how the club have set it up, or that Club V1 simply don't offer that facility.

I only use the terminal / App for competition score entry. You Set your Marker, the person whose score you marked, and then type in your score. Once you submit that, there is no request for the marker to check your score, so I assume all that does is notify the admin who marked whose card. But, ultimately, everyone only enters their own score, so cannot crosscheck using Club V1 alone. Our club still demand physical cards for cross checking (and will still DQ people for not signing physical cards).

For GP rounds, I don't use Club V1 personally, but know some who do. They register before the round, then disappear after the round to enter score. Presumably, I will be their marker on occasions. But, I'm never given any notification, so I never know what they've entered. Easier on MyEG, as it cross checks the scores after every hole for you anyway, and then I need to verify their score after

 

[doublebogey7]

THE RULES OF GOLF DO NOT REQUIRE THERE TO BE A SIGNATURE.

The scoreing function in the EG App fully conforms entirely to the Rules of Golf, but of course this can only be used for GP scores.

My club doesn’t use electronic scoring for competitions and am glad they don't, so am pretty sure there are ISPs that offer the fully compliant function.

 

[rulefan]

THE RULES OF GOLF DO NOT REQUIRE THERE TO BE A SIGNATURE.

The scoreing function in the EG App fully conforms entirely to the Rules of Golf, but of course this can only be used for GP scores.

My club doesn’t use electronic scoring for competitions and am glad they don't, so am pretty sure there are ISPs that offer the fully compliant function.

3.3b. Scoring in Stroke Play
When the round has ended:
The marker must certify the hole scores on the scorecard.

How can 'certification' work without identification

 

[Arthur Wedge]

3.3b. Scoring in Stroke Play
When the round has ended:
The marker must certify the hole scores on the scorecard.

How can 'certification' work without identification

Can that not be verbal certification between the two

 

[rulefan]

Can that not be verbal certification between the two

Perhaps but it usually applies to a written statement, especially one carrying a signature or seal.

Wiki says
Certification is part of testing, inspection and certification and the provision by an independent body of written assurance that the product, service or system in question meets specific requirements. It is the formal attestation or confirmation of certain characteristics of an object, person, or organization. This confirmation is often, but not always, provided by some form of external review, education, assessment, or audit.

 

[Swango1980]

If verbal certification had always been acceptable, then why did pretty much every club always DQ a player when card not signed (before electronic scoring at least). All the player would need to clarify is that they agreed with the score with the marker and simply forgot to sign it.

And how would a Committee member know verbal certification occured?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Perhaps but it usually applies to a written statement, especially one carrying a signature or seal.

Wiki says
Certification is part of testing, inspection and certification and the provision by an independent body of written assurance that the product, service or system in question meets specific requirements. It is the formal attestation or confirmation of certain characteristics of an object, person, or organization. This confirmation is often, but not always, provided by some form of external review, education, assessment, or audit.

“Usually”

nothing in the rule you posted stated that it needed to be written certification

 

[IanM]

Can that not be verbal certification between the two

Practical issue with that is Certification has to have some shelf life, so a third party can use it.

As said above. Folk have been dq'd for years for unsigned cards.