Signing in to a comp

MACM85

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Hi All,

I tried to do a quick search before posting but was unable to find the same question.

Yesterday at our home club there was a mixed comp. Mrs played pretty well and scored 39 points which by the looks of it was a win of the entire day.

However it turns out at 7pm last night our comp secretary signed in a player late as he had either forgot or unable to sign in - The fact 39 other people signed in okay makes me think he just didn't bother to sign in.

Player is signed in. Scorecard uploaded and has 41 points. Win goes towards him.

Is there any rule to prohibit this? As you can imagine my Mrs wasn't best pleased that it wasn't submitted upon return of the round.

Thanks
 

BiMGuy

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Had the player signed in but not entered their score? What do the terms of the competition say?

I won a comp at my place in similar circumstances. For some reason the cut off for score entry was 8pm. But we could enter the comp and start our round at any time during the day.

We teed off around 5:30, meaning I couldn’t enter the score. All I could do was sent a picture of a card to the comp organisers. They input my score at some point the following morning.

I believe the chap who ultimately came second wasn’t too pleased with me, but it was the club’s setup of V1 that was the issue not something I had done.
 
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MACM85

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Had the player signed in but not entered their score?

Played had not signed in or entered a score. Sounds like the card was handed to handicap/comp secretary after the round and it was entered in the evening before the comp was closed

Not that it matters but the player who had not signed in plays pairs knockouts with the chap who signed him into the comp in the evening and entered his card.
 

Swango1980

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I wonder if the players scores would have been submitted if it was 31 points????

Sounds extremely suspect to me. Probably not an issue with competitions with a draw, as it wouldn't be hard to show the player played within the draw, so was clearly always in the comp and there was some sort of mess up with the Signing In.

But in a competition that runs over a day and Players set their own tee times, Competition Secretary's ought to be very clear and careful as to how players Sign In, as the very thing you want to avoid is a player going out, shooting a good score and only then deciding to submit their score. If they don't Sign in, how can the Club be sure the player hasn't been this devious? Good faith?
 

MACM85

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The competition isn't run over a day. You are drawn and go out in the groups. First tee was 8am last was 0930. He was in the second group. Which is why there shouldn't have been any reason for him to not sign in and enter the score in good time after the comp as the score should have been entered by his marker
 

Swango1980

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The competition isn't run over a day. You are drawn and go out in the groups. First tee was 8am last was 0930. He was in the second group. Which is why there shouldn't have been any reason for him to not sign in and enter the score in good time after the comp as the score should have been entered by his marker
Well, in that case, at least you should be fairly more confident that this player was always intended to be in the competition, score good, bad or ugly. I doubt this player would have gone out and played in the competition, and then been allowed to not enter / pay entry fee if they had a bad score. Forgetting to Sign In probably doesn't give them that right.

So, I'd say their score should probably be considered legitimate. I believe most club competitions, you are automatically considered Signed In if you are in the draw anyway, and the only way to undo that would be to officially withdraw before it starts? At our club, the Pro simply Signs everyone in when they arrive. Although, I found the benefit of Signing In was only to the Comp Sec afterwards, as anyone who hasn't entered a score will get flagged if they didn't Sign In. Otherwise, the Comp Sec would have to go through the Draw, and ensure all scores entered (not too arduous, as you simply probably only need to count the number in draw and ensure the same number of scores have been entered).

So, going back to your OP, the player who scored 41 points seems to have done so legitimately. Unless your club have conditions of competition that assumes every player must be Signed in pre comp, otherwise they are not in comp, and I doubt your club has that condition.

Besides, winning a competition with 39 points would surely seem pretty hollow, knowing another player in the drawn field shot 41 points, but whose score was removed on a technicality?
 

MACM85

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Well, in that case, at least you should be fairly more confident that this player was always intended to be in the competition, score good, bad or ugly. I doubt this player would have gone out and played in the competition, and then been allowed to not enter / pay entry fee if they had a bad score. Forgetting to Sign In probably doesn't give them that right.

So, I'd say their score should probably be considered legitimate. I believe most club competitions, you are automatically considered Signed In if you are in the draw anyway, and the only way to undo that would be to officially withdraw before it starts? At our club, the Pro simply Signs everyone in when they arrive. Although, I found the benefit of Signing In was only to the Comp Sec afterwards, as anyone who hasn't entered a score will get flagged if they didn't Sign In. Otherwise, the Comp Sec would have to go through the Draw, and ensure all scores entered (not too arduous, as you simply probably only need to count the number in draw and ensure the same number of scores have been entered).

So, going back to your OP, the player who scored 41 points seems to have done so legitimately. Unless your club have conditions of competition that assumes every player must be Signed in pre comp, otherwise they are not in comp, and I doubt your club has that condition.

Besides, winning a competition with 39 points would surely seem pretty hollow, knowing another player in the drawn field shot 41 points, but whose score was removed on a technicality?

The winning of the comp isn't an issue in this situation.

It is a case of should a score be retrospectively be allowed to enter due to a good score.

Our comp states that all players must sign in before play. Pay their entrance fee and then upon completed agree score with their marker who would then enter their scores.

We have to sign ourselves in on the system in the pro shop. Once that is done we get our marker at the end of the round to enter the scores for us.

We are more looking at trying to make sure this doesn't set a precedent for future comps where you can choose not to sign in. Have a good round and want a cut for handicap so submit the score after the round. If the player in question had a mare and scored 30 points would that card have been handed in and asked to be inputted? Knowing the chap as I do I would say probably not
 

Swango1980

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The winning of the comp isn't an issue in this situation.

It is a case of should a score be retrospectively be allowed to enter due to a good score.

Our comp states that all players must sign in before play. Pay their entrance fee and then upon completed agree score with their marker who would then enter their scores.

We have to sign ourselves in on the system in the pro shop. Once that is done we get our marker at the end of the round to enter the scores for us.

We are more looking at trying to make sure this doesn't set a precedent for future comps where you can choose not to sign in. Have a good round and want a cut for handicap so submit the score after the round. If the player in question had a mare and scored 30 points would that card have been handed in and asked to be inputted? Knowing the chap as I do I would say probably not
However, the competition has been drawn. The player was in the draw. So, the question is, what do you think would have happened if the player shot a bad score? They still played within the drawn competition. The players will be aware the player played in that competition. The Committee would be aware of it. So, is it possible that a player could "forget" to sign in, and then simply not enter the score afterwards. Can players pay their entrance fee AFTER the round, or get a refund if they decide afterwards they don't want to enter? It sounds very unlikely this would be the case, but you can certainly explore that possibility as I won't know the ins and outs of what goes on at your club.

It just seems to me that, given the player was in the draw, and entrance fee would have been paid beforehand and their score would always have been included. Not Signing In seems to simply be a technical issue. If players continue to not sign in, and this is a hassle for the Committee, then given they've included it within their terms would give them grounds to warn the player for future, and maybe act further. But it doesn't seem to be an issue that would nullify a players entry to a competition, unless the terms specifically say that any player who has not Signed In will NOT be in the competition. I suspect such a term would cause more complications to the Committee that they need really, as they'd then probably need to start refunding these forgetful players
 

BiMGuy

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I read that.

But.

Being told you have to sign in, in the pro shop, and the exact definition of signing in, in the terms and conditions of the comp could well be different.
 

Swango1980

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If that is a "Term of Competition" then the score should not be counted.
I'd imagine it isn't in the terms of the competition, given somebody in the Committee has permitted the score. If they went to the effort in stating that scores will not be counted if not electronically signed in, it would be very strange if the same people then permitted a score after not signing in. Unless they've a new competition secretary that as not aware of this.
 

rosecott

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One thing I did find strange from the OP's posting is that the player's score is input by the marker. Is this a common widespread practice?
 

Swango1980

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One thing I did find strange from the OP's posting is that the player's score is input by the marker. Is this a common widespread practice?
Didn't even notice that. Not done at out place. Once I've verified my score, I then take my scorecard and enter my score on the system. I wouldn't want to have the responsibility of entering someone elses score. I'm sure I'd manage, but hate to think I would ever forget to enter the score / submit the physical copy, and they get disqualified for my error.
 

MACM85

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I'd imagine it isn't in the terms of the competition, given somebody in the Committee has permitted the score. If they went to the effort in stating that scores will not be counted if not electronically signed in, it would be very strange if the same people then permitted a score after not signing in. Unless they've a new competition secretary that as not aware of this.

I think the chap who has agreed to input it has done it from his own back as a couple of the comittee members were not happy about someone not signing in then being allowed.

From what we have had back from the comittee is that they will be holding an emergency meeting this weekend to discuss.

The research I have done I have come across this;


G2.1a (2) Pre-Registration Prior To Play
In GB&I each National Union determines that it is a requirement that all rounds for
handicapping purposes, including those for Initial Handicap Award, must be pre-registered
either through the computer software or manually. Entering a competition or being named in
a draw or a booking system is not in itself pre-registration. Registration must be confirmed
on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.
A round has not started until the player has teed off; and any player who for whatever reason
does not start his/her round after pre-registering must be removed from the event and must
not have a score posted on his/her handicap record.
Players who start a round but who do not play the minimum number of holes required may
be subject to a penalty score (Rule 7.1b).
Players who withdraw after pre-registration without a valid reason acceptable to the
Committee could, depending on the particular circumstances, be subject to disciplinary
sanctions under the Terms of the Competition or Code of Conduct.
In submitting General Play scores, players must ensure that they do not breach Rule 5.2
(Practice) of the Rules of Golf.

As we have the rule of signing in on the central system I would take that as the round this individual played is not valid
 

BiMGuy

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Sounds like someone may have cocked up.

Re this “Registration must be confirmed
on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.”

What is the exact wording in your terms and conditions for the competition?
 

MACM85

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Sounds like someone may have cocked up.

Re this “Registration must be confirmed
on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.”

What is the exact wording in your terms and conditions for the competition?

Just says it will be done with adherence to the rules of golf.
 

Swango1980

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I think the chap who has agreed to input it has done it from his own back as a couple of the comittee members were not happy about someone not signing in then being allowed.

From what we have had back from the comittee is that they will be holding an emergency meeting this weekend to discuss.

The research I have done I have come across this;


G2.1a (2) Pre-Registration Prior To Play
In GB&I each National Union determines that it is a requirement that all rounds for
handicapping purposes, including those for Initial Handicap Award, must be pre-registered
either through the computer software or manually. Entering a competition or being named in
a draw or a booking system is not in itself pre-registration. Registration must be confirmed
on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.
A round has not started until the player has teed off; and any player who for whatever reason
does not start his/her round after pre-registering must be removed from the event and must
not have a score posted on his/her handicap record.
Players who start a round but who do not play the minimum number of holes required may
be subject to a penalty score (Rule 7.1b).
Players who withdraw after pre-registration without a valid reason acceptable to the
Committee could, depending on the particular circumstances, be subject to disciplinary
sanctions under the Terms of the Competition or Code of Conduct.
In submitting General Play scores, players must ensure that they do not breach Rule 5.2
(Practice) of the Rules of Golf.

As we have the rule of signing in on the central system I would take that as the round this individual played is not valid
There could be differences between registering an intent to play in a competition and registering an intent to submit a handicap score.

But if your Committee is holding an emergency meeting, then maybe there is something worth being concerned about. It just depends how things work at your club.

At my club, if you are in the draw, you are in the comp unless you officially withdraw beforehand. Your entry fee is paid up before you play. Even though the pro signs us in technically, if he forgot it wouldn't matter. Everyone is still clearly in the comp.

But, if your club includes people in the draw, and they go out and play in the group they've been drawn with yet NOT have to officially be in the competition, then that sounds really strange. Does it mean people can go out and play in the comp and NOT pay an entry fee? Is that possible? And then can they genuinely decide AFTER the round they suddenly want to enter if they shoot a good score? If that is in any way possible, then it shouldn't be obviously.
 

MACM85

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There could be differences between registering an intent to play in a competition and registering an intent to submit a handicap score.

But if your Committee is holding an emergency meeting, then maybe there is something worth being concerned about. It just depends how things work at your club.

At my club, if you are in the draw, you are in the comp unless you officially withdraw beforehand. Your entry fee is paid up before you play. Even though the pro signs us in technically, if he forgot it wouldn't matter. Everyone is still clearly in the comp.

But, if your club includes people in the draw, and they go out and play in the group they've been drawn with yet NOT have to officially be in the competition, then that sounds really strange. Does it mean people can go out and play in the comp and NOT pay an entry fee? Is that possible? And then can they genuinely decide AFTER the round they suddenly want to enter if they shoot a good score? If that is in any way possible, then it shouldn't be obviously.

It is a difficult one as techincally you can sign up to the comp. Not pay your entrance fee and be allowed to play. You just wouldn't be in the comp for the prize money etc.

Our club hasn't got a great commitee and if I am honest don't really know what they are doing,
 
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