Can a General Penalty be Retrospectively Applied

[Steven Rules]

We played the hole and putted out. I asked player A (in breach) his score…giving him opportunity to include the GP. He told me his score and pts without the GP. I expressed my disapproval, but wrote it down and put an asterisk beside it with footnote Wrong Tee. I was not going to just ‘forget about it’. And we continued.

The substantive issue and discussion in this thread has been about rules 'leniency' and the 'atmosphere' that ensued after initially ignoring a breach but then subsequently enforcing the relevant penalty. All good discussion.

But I can't allow another aspect of the wrong process to go without comment. (acknowldging that Rulie touched on it in #9)

Rule 6.1b. In stroke play (including stableford) when a player who is starting a hole plays a ball from outside the teeing area (including from a wrong set of tee-markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole) the player gets the general penalty and must correct the mistake by playing a ball from inside the teeing area. The ball played from outside the teeing area is not in play and any strokes made before the mistake is corrected do not count. If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning their scorecard, the player is disqualified. (or in stableford, zero points for the hole)

From post #8 there doesn't seem to be any indication that the player corrected the mistake by playing from inside the teeing area. It further seems that the other players in the group were also oblivious to the requirement to do so.

 

[Slab]

You whaaaattttt?????????

Yeah I was kinda thinking the same. I suppose the roll-up group in question might have it as a ‘condition’ of their group that in these non-q games the only rule of golf that can be waived is putting out from inside xx distance

Otherwise I guess we’ve all done/do non-Q fun rounds with gimmies, but since those rounds aren’t being played to ROG anyway I doubt I’d stress about someone teeing off from wrong tees either (assuming they correct it)

They’d get (deservedly) ‘fined’ for it at the post-match drinks though

 

[Colin L]

The substantive issue and discussion in this thread has been about rules 'leniency' and the 'atmosphere' that ensued after initially ignoring a breach but then subsequently enforcing the relevant penalty. All good discussion..

We would have been better placed to help the OP with the actual situation had we been told what the actual situation was at the start.

I have to add a general bewilderment - dismay even - that there seems to be a notion around that playing to the rules matters only in a qualifying competition. Maybe I'm misreading.

 

[salfordlad]

Who has the final word on what to enforce and what to ignore?

Precisely. It is a recipe for disaster. There is absolutely no place for gimmes in any stroke play competition.

 

[D-S]

The substantive issue and discussion in this thread has been about rules 'leniency' and the 'atmosphere' that ensued after initially ignoring a breach but then subsequently enforcing the relevant penalty. All good discussion.

But I can't allow another aspect of the wrong process to go without comment. (acknowldging that Rulie touched on it in #9)

Rule 6.1b. In stroke play (including stableford) when a player who is starting a hole plays a ball from outside the teeing area (including from a wrong set of tee-markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole) the player gets the general penalty and must correct the mistake by playing a ball from inside the teeing area. The ball played from outside the teeing area is not in play and any strokes made before the mistake is corrected do not count. If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning their scorecard, the player is disqualified. (or in stableford, zero points for the hole)

From post #8 there doesn't seem to be any indication that the player corrected the mistake by playing from inside the teeing area. It further seems that the other players in the group were also oblivious to the requirement to do so.

Doesn’t post 13 in this thread contradict your view? Or was this wrong?

 

[bobmac]

Who has the final word on what to enforce and what to ignore?

Precisely. It is a recipe for disaster. There is absolutely no place for gimmes in any stroke play competition.

Just as well it's only a game

 

[Steven Rules]

Doesn’t post 13 in this thread contradict your view? Or was this wrong?

Fair enough. My oversight. Both #9 and #13 (not just #9 as I suggested in #21) touch on the issue of needing to correct the mistake. My intent in #21 was to flesh out the Rule in relation to playing outside the teeing area in stroke play.

Maybe I am blind to my own inadequacies but I don't see any contradiction between #13 and #21. Indeed, both draw on the words in the Rules of Golf. If there is a contradiction between the two posts then you'll need to point it out to me more explicitly.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The substantive issue and discussion in this thread has been about rules 'leniency' and the 'atmosphere' that ensued after initially ignoring a breach but then subsequently enforcing the relevant penalty. All good discussion.

But I can't allow another aspect of the wrong process to go without comment. (acknowldging that Rulie touched on it in #9)

Rule 6.1b. In stroke play (including stableford) when a player who is starting a hole plays a ball from outside the teeing area (including from a wrong set of tee-markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole) the player gets the general penalty and must correct the mistake by playing a ball from inside the teeing area. The ball played from outside the teeing area is not in play and any strokes made before the mistake is corrected do not count. If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or, for the final hole of the round, before returning their scorecard, the player is disqualified. (or in stableford, zero points for the hole)

From post #8 there doesn't seem to be any indication that the player corrected the mistake by playing from inside the teeing area. It further seems that the other players in the group were also oblivious to the requirement to do so.

He didn’t correct his mistake. We all knew that he should have played another ball from the correct tee. He took from what the one player saying ‘leniency’ and a third keeping schtum, that as he had the majority view he was ok to just continue as if he hadn’t played from outside the teeing area. fwiw (which is zilch under the rules) the two tees were at most 3yards apart.

I had made my view known and wasn’t inclined to argue further, instead decided to give him the opportunity when we had completed the hole to have reflected and agree to the GP (now I’m aware that zero points was actually the penalty to be applied at that point). But he didn’t. And that’s why I annotated the card noting ‘wrong tee’ as I did. If it came to it I had decided I wouldn’t sign off his score.

If another in the group did and his score was going to win £s the comp organiser would check his card and would spot my annotation and ask me or who signed off the score what it was…the comp organiser could then decide what to do.

Q. Were all three others in the group all deemed complicit in accepting the rule breach and therefore subject to any penalty? If so did anything that I did (annotate score card) or say to the other two (I’m not signing off his score) exempt me from any penalty?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are marking the card

You put down the score on the card that the player got not what he thinks he got

So in this case zero points and move on

If he complains then point them in the general direction of the rule

Simple

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We would have been better placed to help the OP with the actual situation had we been told what the actual situation was at the start.

I have to add a general bewilderment - dismay even - that there seems to be a notion around that playing to the rules matters only in a qualifying competition. Maybe I'm misreading.

No you are not. However I do not think such ‘leniency’ is widespread or commonplace in our rollup comp, but it happens and I really push back on it when I see it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Precisely. It is a recipe for disaster. There is absolutely no place for gimmes in any stroke play competition.

This we all in the rollup are fully aware of. We play a random draw so there is little or no set group buddy-buddy leniency over length of putts conceded. We really only concede the very shortest of putts, basically just tap-ins. We allow gimmes as we have a side 4BBB match alongside the main group comp.

As a quite large and ever evolving group (34 of us on Saturday), we have played with each other many times over many years and know each other as good golfing mates…and my experience is that we have a good and strong sense of fairness to all playing in the comp.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You are marking the card

You put down the score on the card that the player got not what he thinks he got

So in this case zero points and move on

If he complains then point them in the general direction of the rule

Simple

Yes I know. For reasons explained I didn’t, but I wasn’t going to let him get away with it.

 

[Swango1980]

He didn’t correct his mistake. We all knew that he should have played another ball from the correct tee. He took from what the one player saying ‘leniency’ and a third keeping schtum, that as he had the majority view he was ok to just continue as if he hadn’t played from outside the teeing area. fwiw (which is zilch under the rules) the two tees were at most 3yards apart.

I had made my view known and wasn’t inclined to argue further, instead decided to give him the opportunity when we had completed the hole to have reflected and agree to the GP (now I’m aware that zero points was actually the penalty to be applied at that point). But he didn’t. And that’s why I annotated the card noting ‘wrong tee’ as I did. If it came to it I had decided I wouldn’t sign off his score.

If another in the group did and his score was going to win £s the comp organiser would check his card and would spot my annotation and ask me or who signed off the score what it was…the comp organiser could then decide what to do.

Q. Were all three others in the group all deemed complicit in accepting the rule breach and therefore subject to any penalty? If so did anything that I did (annotate score card) or say to the other two (I’m not signing off his score) exempt me from any penalty?

I see the issue you are making for yourself. There is a certain leniency to allow things go at the time, yet at the same time you are making notes about where rules infringements occur, just in case the person actually wins the money. Question is, then, what is the point in being lenient if you then decide to NOT be lenient once it is known the person has won? Is everyone else playing happy with this type of leniency? They are all happy for you to ignore any "minor" rules infringements, but also happy to then be penalised if they actually end up winning? Surely it would be better for everyone to know where they stand at all times, and are confident what their score is at the end of the game. Not then having to worry about what penalties have been ignored, but are now going to be enforced?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I see the issue you are making for yourself. There is a certain leniency to allow things go at the time, yet at the same time you are making notes about where rules infringements occur, just in case the person actually wins the money. Question is, then, what is the point in being lenient if you then decide to NOT be lenient once it is known the person has won? Is everyone else playing happy with this type of leniency? They are all happy for you to ignore any "minor" rules infringements, but also happy to then be penalised if they actually end up winning? Surely it would be better for everyone to know where they stand at all times, and are confident what their score is at the end of the game. Not then having to worry about what penalties have been ignored, but are now going to be enforced?

I agree. But we are where we are. As I say, I very much doubt the leniency taken on Sat happens much at all, in fact I suspect it’ll be extremely rare as we look out for others in the comp. We actually look to play within the rules - caveat gimmes allowed. But I do see some leniency being offered or suggested and as I said I push back. I suspect, only suspect, others may not be as firm as I am in expecting and requiring strict compliance with the rules. Maybe I’m just a boring old grinch/killjoy.

But I am wondering whether what I said and did protects me in any way from any penalty imposed on my group for being complicit in ignoring a rule breach.

 

[Slab]

I love that its possible/plausible/probable (choose your fav) that the other three players collectively received gimmies amounting to 3yards


I wholeheartedly agree that he shouldn't "get away with it" but its not a stance taken from a very high pedestal in these circumstances

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes I know. For reasons explained I didn’t, but I wasn’t going to let him get away with it.

But you did let him get away with it the minute you put down a score on that hole and didn’t confirm it then and there

He broke a rule and there is a penalty for that

Can’t compare it to gimmies if the roll up allow gimmies

 

[Steven Rules]

Q. Were all three others in the group all deemed complicit in accepting the rule breach and therefore subject to any penalty? If so did anything that I did (annotate score card) or say to the other two (I’m not signing off his score) exempt me from any penalty?

In relation to playing from outside the teeing area

If the signed scorecard shows zero points for the player for the hole in question, then I would be inclined to say no DQ for anybody in the group as the penalty (i.e. zero points for the hole) has been correctly applied.

1.3b(1) says if a player knows they have breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified. But in this case the penalty has been applied (eventually but, importantly, before scorecard return) so no DQ.

20.1c(2) says if a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns their scorecard unless it is not possible to do so. The scorecard is showing zero points for the hole so no problem here.

But the bit that indicates that DQ may be appropriate is where 1.3b(1) goes on to say that if two or more players agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement). If I was a member of the Committee I'd want ro probe a bit more into the nature of any 'agreement '.

In relation to the gimmes

Every player in the group is DQ. No question or doubt about it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In relation to playing from outside the teeing area

If the signed scorecard shows zero points for the player for the hole in question, then I would be inclined to say no DQ for anybody in the group as the penalty (i.e. zero points for the hole) has been correctly applied.

1.3b(1) says if a player knows they have breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified. But in this case the penalty has been applied (eventually but, importantly, before scorecard return) so no DQ.

20.1c(2) says if a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns their scorecard unless it is not possible to do so. The scorecard is showing zero points for the hole so no problem here.

But the bit that indicates that DQ may be appropriate is where 1.3b(1) goes on to say that if two or more players agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement). If I was a member of the Committee I'd want ro probe a bit more into the nature of any 'agreement '.

In relation to the gimmes

Every player in the group is DQ. No question or doubt about it.

Gimmies DQ ?! I’m guessing you are talking official club comps here as opposed to club swindles and rolls up where many allow gimmies

 

[Swango1980]

Gimmies DQ ?! I’m guessing you are talking official club comps here as opposed to club swindles and rolls up where many allow gimmies

When making a comment on the rules, would it not be obvious that the answer is based on the official outcome of a Rules Breach? I don't think Steven Rules was implying that if he joined their roll up he would demand they are all disqualified for playing gimmes? If they all agree that they can have 3 mulligans or throw the ball out of the rough, they can do what they like. But, it doesn't change the fact that they'd all be disqualified if we were talking about what would happen under the Rules of Golf.

 

[Colin L]

Gimmies DQ ?! I’m guessing you are talking official club comps here as opposed to club swindles and rolls up where many allow gimmies

I expect Steven was talking about any stroke play competition such as the kind SwingsitlikeHogan described where certified cards are returned and there are winners and prizes. Whether qualifying or not is immaterial but gimmies are inappropriate.