Can a General Penalty be Retrospectively Applied

[Deleted member 15344]

I expect Steven was talking about any stroke play competition such as the kind SwingsitlikeHogan described where certified cards are returned and there are winners and prizes. Whether qualifying or not is immaterial but gimmies are inappropriate.

“The reason there was leniency at the time of the infringement was that it was a friendly rollup round.”

Cards not being submitted for WHS

It’s a roll up ? And one that seems to allow Gimmies

We have winners and prizes and cards marked and returned to the organisers and we use gimmies

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In relation to playing from outside the teeing area

If the signed scorecard shows zero points for the player for the hole in question, then I would be inclined to say no DQ for anybody in the group as the penalty (i.e. zero points for the hole) has been correctly applied.

1.3b(1) says if a player knows they have breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified. But in this case the penalty has been applied (eventually but, importantly, before scorecard return) so no DQ.

20.1c(2) says if a player knows or believes that another player has breached or might have breached the Rules and that the other player does not recognize or is ignoring this, the player should tell the other player, the player’s marker, a referee or the Committee. This should be done promptly after the player becomes aware of the issue, and no later than before the other player returns their scorecard unless it is not possible to do so. The scorecard is showing zero points for the hole so no problem here.

But the bit that indicates that DQ may be appropriate is where 1.3b(1) goes on to say that if two or more players agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement). If I was a member of the Committee I'd want ro probe a bit more into the nature of any 'agreement '.

In relation to the gimmes

Every player in the group is DQ. No question or doubt about it.

It’s a friendly self-contained rollup stableford NQ comp. The rollup decided many moons ago that gimmies were appropriate and allowed. If any player in the rollup wishes his card to be submitted as a qualifying card then he registers it before going out and does not get given anything and has to hole out every hole - as you would expect.

 

[Colin L]

There's a question to be asked in there about why an organised stableford competition is non-qualifying. In a way, you've got things the wrong way round.
A golf competition is qualifying because it is played to the rules; it should be played to the rules in the first place because it's a golf competition.

The main difficulty about the situation you described has already been mentioned. It's wholly inconsistent to make a stand on a breach of the rules by the guy who played from outside the teeing area and at the same time try to justify gimmes.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

There's a question to be asked in there about why an organised stableford competition is non-qualifying. In a way, you've got things the wrong way round.
A golf competition is qualifying because it is played to the rules; it should be played to the rules in the first place because it's a golf competition.

The main difficulty about the situation you described has already been mentioned. It's wholly inconsistent to make a stand on a breach of the rules by the guy who played from outside the teeing area and at the same time try to justify gimmes.

It’s a swindle ? A roll up - the same sort that happen up and down the country -organised by members for a bunch of friends , it’s relaxed social golf

Many of them allow gimmies , some allow pick and place everywhere etc - doesn’t mean that other rules of golf are ignored

Surely you know the difference between them and a club organised golf competition

 

[rulie]

It’s a swindle ? A roll up - the same sort that happen up and down the country -organised by members for a bunch of friends , it’s relaxed social golf

Many of them allow gimmies , some allow pick and place everywhere etc - doesn’t mean that other rules of golf are ignored

Surely you know the difference between them and a club organised golf competition

Off topic, but why is called a "swindle"?

 

[Swango1980]

It’s a swindle ? A roll up - the same sort that happen up and down the country -organised by members for a bunch of friends , it’s relaxed social golf

Many of them allow gimmies , some allow pick and place everywhere etc - doesn’t mean that other rules of golf are ignored

Surely you know the difference between them and a club organised golf competition

One chap said there was a penalty. Another chap said don't worry about it, we shouldn't take it seriously. A 4th said he wasn't happy to ignore the penalty, but didn't say to everyone as he was afraid of being called a grouch.

After the guilty part claimed the wrong score, the marker expressed his disproval, and was not going to forget about it. Later, the marker says they will not be signing the card. The guilty party then grudgingly agreed on the penalty. The marker wasn't firm at the time it happened, as he was worried he'd create an atmosphere.

Indeed, we all love these relaxed social rounds of golf

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Off topic, but why is called a "swindle"?

I suspect someone decades ago decided it was about “swindling” others out of money and it just went from there.

 

[rulie]

I suspect someone decades ago decided it was about “swindling” others out of money and it just went from there.

Seems consistent with the current discussion?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Seems consistent with the current discussion?

Does it

I guess if the belief is the player is deliberately ignoring the rules in an attempt to win money

 

[rulie]

It certainly reads that way at the beginning.

 

[Swango1980]

Does it

I guess if the belief is the player is deliberately ignoring the rules in an attempt to win money

I mean, no belief required. That is exactly the situation as described. The player was told about the penalty, but deliberately ignored it to give themselves points on the hole. Hence the uncomfortable situation it created thereafter.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There's a question to be asked in there about why an organised stableford competition is non-qualifying. In a way, you've got things the wrong way round.
A golf competition is qualifying because it is played to the rules; it should be played to the rules in the first place because it's a golf competition.

The main difficulty about the situation you described has already been mentioned. It's wholly inconsistent to make a stand on a breach of the rules by the guy who played from outside the teeing area and at the same time try to justify gimmes.

There was a lot of debate on this as the club at first required all rollups to be WHS qualifiers, but the push back from those playing in our Sat one was such that the club relented. Key thing that players identified was that though it was an individual stableford comp we play 4BBB matchplay in our fours alongside the individual comp with gimmies and banter…We play to the rules, excepting gimmies, but want a bit of a laugh as well. BTW - we don’t refer to it as a ‘swindle’. It’s just the Sat rollup.

 

[D-S]

l believe that there were/are similar cases all over the country when the issue of roll ups which had always been ‘fun’ comps suddenly needed to become qualifying. One of the easiest get outs was to allow gimmes, even where there hadn’t been before, in order to render them non qualifying. The culture that distinctly separates ’proper golf’ (i.e.qualifying) and social golf is still very strong and understood.

 

[BiMGuy]

I’m interested to know why playing to the rules stops people having a laugh and enjoying their time on the course?

How does allowing gimmies increase the enjoyment so much?

 

[bobmac]

I wonder how many people drive at 35mph in a 30 limit going to the golf course and then yell blue murder when people use gimmies in a friendly roll up

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’m interested to know why playing to the rules stops people having a laugh and enjoying their time on the course?

How does allowing gimmies increase the enjoyment so much?

Because, in general…not just over the shortest putts, we can good naturedly take the p155 and wind up those in our group in a way that we just wouldn’t were we playing a serious comp.

The £s pot we are playing for is insignificant (most anyone will ever win would be about £20) and so none of us are that bothered about winning it. It’s nice if we do, but in truth it’s the winning that we are pleased about and not the £s we win.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder how many people drive at 35mph in a 30 limit going to the golf course and then yell blue murder when people use gimmies in a friendly roll up

If it was a race to get to the golf club, with the winner taking the money from the other players, then I'm sure there would be moaning if certain people were not driving to the rules.

People may well complain about players allowing gimmes in competitive events, but I'm sure the same people wouldn't care less if a player played gimmes when they went out for a casual solo round.

 

[bobmac]

If it was a race to get to the golf club, with the winner taking the money from the other players, then I'm sure there would be moaning if certain people were not driving to the rules.

People may well complain about players allowing gimmes in competitive events, but I'm sure the same people wouldn't care less if a player played gimmes when they went out for a casual solo round.

I never mentioned a casual solo round and even if I did, how can you play gimmes in a solo round?
I was talking about people who seem to think the rules of golf are not to be messed with, whereas breaking the speed limit is fine.

 

[Swango1980]

I never mentioned a casual solo round and even if I did, how can you play gimmes in a solo round?
I was talking about people who seem to think the rules of golf are not to be messed with, whereas breaking the speed limit is fine.

Read my first line. People are interested in the rules of golf in a situation where there is any sort of competition. If there wasn't, it wouldn't be an issue. I simply picked a solo round as an easy example of where competition doesn't apply. If you prefer, make it a 2 ball. Most people won't care about a relaxation in applying the rules, if both are simply knocking it around, not keeping score, and really only treating it as a bit of practice, and a nice walk.

We are also on a golf rules forum, so probably shouldn't be shocked by the nature of the discussion. If you were on a speed awareness forum, there may well be people very passionate about going 35mph in a 30mph zone. They may also be golfers, but I still wouldn't use the line " I wonder how many people allow gimmes in their roll ups, and then yell blue murder when people drive at 30mph in a 30 zone"

 

[BiMGuy]

Because, in general…not just over the shortest putts, we can good naturedly take the p155 and wind up those in our group in a way that we just wouldn’t were we playing a serious comp.

The £s pot we are playing for is insignificant (most anyone will ever win would be about £20) and so none of us are that bothered about winning it. It’s nice if we do, but in truth it’s the winning that we are pleased about and not the £s we win.

Again, what really is the difference between whatever you call a serious comp and a casual game? Other than people over inflating the importance of playing for a plastic trophy and their name on a board or £30 of shop credit?

In my opinion they are the same thing. It’s just a round of golf.