Wrong tee penalty should be removed ?

[Ye Olde Boomer]

Came up today. We were playing a competition from our forward blue tees, two of the group teed off from our ‘normal’ yellow tees on 16 before we realised what we were doing. 2 shot penalties for both of them.
The conversation in the clubhouse centred on the differences in how the same infraction is treated in Strokeplay to matchplay.

Exactly how detached are UK players from the people with whom they're playing?
How is it possible for players from the same group to hit from the wrong tees?
I'm clearly missing something.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I'd not seen your post prior to writting mine.

I gathered that, thus the coincidence of just having mentioned you.

 

[Dunesman]

How is it possible for players from the same group to hit from the wrong tees?
I'm clearly missing something.

Until the last few years, everyone played from the same marker. No issue. You tee up first or follow on from those ahead of you. Despite speedy play urgings, honour still generally applies.
But for 3 years now we have mixed tee competitions, once or twice a month. Still the exception rather than the rule.
Four playing together, three off the whites, one off the greens. First three play from their whites, 4th man steps up after the third and hits from the whites. Rather than the greens.
Easily done. Old habits die hard.

 

[rulefan]

1. The 'just do it right' is a very weak, or even not at all, justification. 'because thats what the rule says' is of course a valid justification for doing it while the rule is there, but that does not necessarily justify the rule being there in the first place.
2. Your score should reflect your performance, not your memory
3. The 2019 rules modifications wrote out several 'silly' rules in order to make golf fairer and seem less pedantically punitive of the trivial (moving your ball while marking on the green, touching the ground with your club in a hazard, etc). Play from multiple tees in the same group was not part of the game at the time. But is in the same vein as their motivation for a group of those changes at the time.
4. It is happening that people are not penalising themselves, wittingly or unwittingly. Sometimes fairness is better served by the rules moving to the reality rather holding a utopian expectation for the letter of the law.

Player 1 declares he is going to play the back tees but on every 3rd tee he accidentally plays from the forward tees some 20+ yards forward.
Player 2 declares he is going to play the forward tees but on every 3rd tee he accidentally plays from the back tees some 20+ yards back.

1) Vanity capper ?
2) Bandit?

 

[Dunesman]

Player 1 declares he is going to play the back tees but on every 3rd tee he accidentally plays from the forward tees some 20+ yards forward.
Player 2 declares he is going to play the forward tees but on every 3rd tee he accidentally plays from the back tees some 20+ yards back.

1) Vanity capper ?
2) Bandit?

Thats extreme and absurd, and not what I am describing. Its no more intentional than moving your ball in the rough when searching which used to be a penalty. That was defended pre 2019 on the basis that, well, search more carefully so that you dont risk moving it, we cant have people exploiting no penalty to improve their lie intentionally but legally. Wrong tee an even greater rarity, but happening. People not playing mixed tee will not understand it. We have a choice of 3 tees for these competitions.

 

[rulie]

Thats extreme and absurd, and not what I am describing. Its no more intentional than moving your ball in the rough when searching which used to be a penalty. Defended before 2019 on the basis of, well, search mire carefully, we cant have people moving the ball as they might improve their lie.

Save your powder, make up your own "rules".

 

[jim8flog]

Came up today. We were playing a competition from our forward blue tees, two of the group teed off from our ‘normal’ yellow tees on 16 before we realised what we were doing. 2 shot penalties for both of them.
The conversation in the clubhouse centred on the differences in how the same infraction is treated in Strokeplay to matchplay.

and also in Stableford compared to handicap/medal stroke play (sort of)

 

[rulefan]

and also in Stableford compared to handicap/medal stroke play (sort of)

?

 

[doublebogey7]

There is not a rule about playing from the wrong tee, the rule I expect you are referring to is 6.1a Ball Must Be Played inside Teeing Area. How exactly would you propose this rule to be written, as I assume despite waht yopu have said you see a need for such a rule.

 

[Backache]

Firstly if you don't correct the mistake the penalty is disqualification surely?

I have to say if you do correct the mistake a two shot penalty appears harsh.

 

[rulefan]

Firstly if you don't correct the mistake the penalty is disqualification surely?

I have to say if you do correct the mistake a two shot penalty appears harsh.

As D-S says, it is consistent with any wrong place rule. Are you suggesting that all wrong place penalties should be changed?

 

[Backache]

As D-S says, it is consistent with any wrong place rule. Are you suggesting that all wrong place penalties should be changed?

To be honest I'm not really sure why any of them should be two shot penalties if the mistake is rectified.

 

[rulefan]

To be honest I'm not really sure why any of them should be two shot penalties if the mistake is rectified.

Players may be tempted to use them as practice shot?

But this is what Tufts had to say.

The purpose of the Rules is to insure that as far as possible everyone plays the same game. The penalties serve to police the chance
that by taking advantage of an inadequately protected Rule players will play a game wholly different from golf. The penalties must be adequate
to provide this protection for if they are too light it is conceivable that golf would become a game of negotiation, with the golfer deliberately
accepting penalties in order to obtain some advantage. Thus the Rules themselves would provide the golfer with an inexpensive method of
avoiding the results of a badly played shot. Under these conditions golf would lose all character and become a travesty.
In order to maintain this principle, it must be admitted that at times the penalties appear to be unduly severe. It is impossible to provide a
completely graduated scale of penalties, though the Rules do permit modifying the penalty of disqualification [Rule 33-7], and the penalty
applied to each particular rule must be specific and adequate at least to match the maximum advantage which the player is likely to receive. The
penalties cannot be expected, nor are they intended to exactly offset the advantage gained from the violation.

TWO-STROKE AND LOSS OF HOLE PENALTIES
The two-stroke penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play is the general penalty under the Rules. In most cases it is obvious
that a lighter penalty would be inadequate. For example, in the case of a ball in motion stopped or deflected by the player himself, his partner or
either of their caddies [Rule 19-2], it is obvious that the advantage to the player or his side might be considerable. The ball might have been
headed for some difficulty, such as a bunker, from which the player’s ability to recover in one stroke would be uncertain and, whether the
stopping or deflecting of the ball was intentional or accidental, the advantage would be substantial. A one-stroke penalty would be less than
the advantage the player might derive, and the Rules therefore provide for a penalty of two strokes in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.
A glance through the Rule book will show that in a majority of the cases where the two-stroke and loss of hole penalty is provided, the
player is in a position, through the infraction of the Rule, to gain some sort of indefinite advantage. The probability is that the advantage will be
no greater than one stroke but there is usually the possibility that it may be greater and therefore the penalty of two strokes is provided. Just a
few examples of such rules will serve to direct attention to the many others not cited: the play of a practice stroke [Rule 7-2], giving or
receiving advice [Rule 8-1], improving the lie [Rule 13], not striking the ball fairly [Rule 14-1], taking undue relief from obstructions [Rule 24]
and many others. The two stroke or loss of hole penalty is the standard penalty used in the Rules. Obviously any lesser penalty would not fully equalize the possible advantages received by the player in the situations for which it is used.

 

[Backache]

Players may be tempted to use them as practice shot?

They'd still have one penalty shot.

 

[Backache]

Players may be tempted to use them as practice shot?

But this is what Tufts had to say.

The purpose of the Rules is to insure that as far as possible everyone plays the same game. The penalties serve to police the chance
that by taking advantage of an inadequately protected Rule players will play a game wholly different from golf. The penalties must be adequate
to provide this protection for if they are too light it is conceivable that golf would become a game of negotiation, with the golfer deliberately
accepting penalties in order to obtain some advantage. Thus the Rules themselves would provide the golfer with an inexpensive method of
avoiding the results of a badly played shot. Under these conditions golf would lose all character and become a travesty.
In order to maintain this principle, it must be admitted that at times the penalties appear to be unduly severe. It is impossible to provide a
completely graduated scale of penalties, though the Rules do permit modifying the penalty of disqualification [Rule 33-7], and the penalty
applied to each particular rule must be specific and adequate at least to match the maximum advantage which the player is likely to receive. The
penalties cannot be expected, nor are they intended to exactly offset the advantage gained from the violation.

TWO-STROKE AND LOSS OF HOLE PENALTIES
The two-stroke penalty in stroke play and loss of hole in match play is the general penalty under the Rules. In most cases it is obvious
that a lighter penalty would be inadequate. For example, in the case of a ball in motion stopped or deflected by the player himself, his partner or
either of their caddies [Rule 19-2], it is obvious that the advantage to the player or his side might be considerable. The ball might have been
headed for some difficulty, such as a bunker, from which the player’s ability to recover in one stroke would be uncertain and, whether the
stopping or deflecting of the ball was intentional or accidental, the advantage would be substantial. A one-stroke penalty would be less than
the advantage the player might derive, and the Rules therefore provide for a penalty of two strokes in stroke play and loss of hole in match play.
A glance through the Rule book will show that in a majority of the cases where the two-stroke and loss of hole penalty is provided, the
player is in a position, through the infraction of the Rule, to gain some sort of indefinite advantage. The probability is that the advantage will be
no greater than one stroke but there is usually the possibility that it may be greater and therefore the penalty of two strokes is provided. Just a
few examples of such rules will serve to direct attention to the many others not cited: the play of a practice stroke [Rule 7-2], giving or
receiving advice [Rule 8-1], improving the lie [Rule 13], not striking the ball fairly [Rule 14-1], taking undue relief from obstructions [Rule 24]
and many others. The two stroke or loss of hole penalty is the standard penalty used in the Rules. Obviously any lesser penalty would not fully equalize the possible advantages received by the player in the situations for which it is used.

That is fine but in the case of playing of the wrong tee, if you do not correct the mistake the penalty is disqualification in stroke play.

In match play the penalty is not loss of hole which is the equivalent but the shot may be recalled at the opponents discretion.

There is no surreptitious advantage gained with only a one stroke penalty. You are either disqualified or you have to replay from the correct place.

 

[Colin L]

As pointed out above, the breach is not specifically for playing from the "wrong tee" but for starting a hole outside the teeing area of the hole being played. That means anywhere outside the teeing area, including the areas prepared for the teeing areas for other hole. How could you make an exception for playing from the wrong tee? At one hole on my course it could mean that I would cop a 2 stroke penalty for inadvertently starting the next hole from a few inches in front of the yellow markers but incur no penalty if I absent-mindedly played from the red markers which are about 100 yards forward of the yellow on the other side of a gully.

 

[Backache]

As pointed out above, the breach is not specifically for playing from the "wrong tee" but for starting a hole outside the teeing area of the hole being played. That means anywhere outside the teeing area, including the areas prepared for the teeing areas for other hole. How could you make an exception for playing from the wrong tee? At one hole on my course it could mean that I would cop a 2 stroke penalty for inadvertently starting the next hole from a few inches in front of the yellow markers but incur no penalty if I absent-mindedly played from the red markers which are about 100 yards froward of the yellow on the other side of a gully.

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrongly, but my reading is that a two shot penalty is unduly harsh, not that there should be no penalty.

Personally I agree that a one shot penalty should suffice.

If the error is not corrected the penalty is DQ.

 

[woofers]

That is fine but in the case of playing of the wrong tee, if you do not correct the mistake the penalty is disqualification in stroke play.

Only in regular medal scoring. For Stableford scoring it’s no points for the hole played. See rule 21.1c.
Also 21.2c and 21.3c for maximum score and par / bogey scoring rounds.
There is no disqualification.

 

[Backache]

Only in regular medal scoring. For Stableford scoring it’s no points for the hole played. See rule 21.1c.
Also 21.2c and 21.3c for maximum score and par / bogey scoring rounds.
There is no disqualification.

Fair enough, but the point is that if you don't correct your mistake the penalty is more severe than the General penalty.

 

[woofers]

Fair enough, but the point is that if you don't correct your mistake the penalty is more severe than the General penalty.

The definition of the General Penalty is two penalty strokes in stroke play.